Need some advice, newbie owner

[SlvrBlltDwgPnd]

Hi Everyone,

First, thanks to all of you for your posts and willingness to spread your knowledge to people like me. I acquired a print shop late last year and this is my first experience in the industry.

I have a Canon iP C7000VP and Canon iP C7010VP both with a decent amount of clicks on them. Recently, GFC has informed me the 7000 is basically unsupported and they are no longer making parts for the machine. I have been preparing for this, knowing that the machine was going to have a moratorium regardless of the "odometer". That said, I am not necessarily ready to go into big debt or absorb a large lease payment each month given the current economy and how new I am to this world.

We do around 300K color and b&w prints of all different sizes and paper weights a month between our three digital presses.

I have had my eye on some used equipment I have seen on various sites. I had a lot of success with an auction site and an envelope printer a couple months back. That was an easy buy, I knew exactly the need and there were a handful of solutions for that need.

I appreciate the service contract I have with GFC and it's ease. For that reason I am looking at another Canon press to fill the need. They also service Ricoh so that would be within consideration as well. But, the larger obstacle is that I don't even know what is out there and I am being pressed (pun intended) to make a decision more quickly than I would prefer. In a perfect world I would attend some trade shows and buy a couple beers for one of you in exchange for some brain-picking on the subject.

Sorry for the long-winded message but I was hoping to give you all a quick background so you could throw any advice my way. Bottom line, I am asking for a couple things. If I am going to buy a used Canon press are there models to shoot for? It seems like all the way thru the 10010 the print resolution is the same and there are not any huge new improvements they offer. How does the numbering system work with Canon? I cannot seem to find a clear explanation. For instance, is a Imagepress C750 older or newer or better than a C800, and is a C810 better than both? My goal is to have a daily workhorse that can supplement the 7010 and possibly even add something to our print arsenal that we don't offer today. I also have an uphill battle getting GFC to agree to put a used copier on their service contract. Any experience with that is appreciated as well.

Finally, is there something that makes more sense, I like to think that I have basically three machines that do virtually the same exact thing just one is older than the other. Does it make sense to try to acquire a different brand (again, used machine) that has other capabilities? I have had several salespeople stop by with brochures printed on their newest technology. I am sure they are out of my price range but there is definitely some cool stuff out there.

Sorry I know this is a lot and I am sort of all over the place but I thought this could get me started and all of you wonderful people can mock me then provide some good information. Thanks in advance!

Justin

 

[kslight]

I have no real experience (demos only) with modern Canon machines.

The problem with used (especially color) digital presses is of course the relatively short service life…if you buy a 3-5 year old machine you may only get 3-5 more years before they put you in the same boat.., but also the service charges are much higher, you probably will have a large upfront cost to get the machine up to spec and on a service contract, and your machine may not be as reliable as you like. In many cases, IMHO, you don’t always save money with a used digital press. BW press I would sometimes be more comfortable with because they are less complex and less quality critical.

I’ve had employers with both strategies. One employer had 30k square feet full of 20 year old BW Xerox machines, 10-15 year old color, and 30-50 year old bindery equipment…most of that shit we spent all day fighting, reprinting, fighting with service, tons of labor wasted, and our service contracts were high as hell (much higher than a lease payment…i did the accounting when I was there) and when they eventually went out of business 9/10 machines were still there rotting in the shop because nobody wanted them / worthless. Eventually we did have to get out of our color presses and into two smaller leased units, otherwise we were literally broken down every 2000 copies.

I currently work somewhere with a leased digital press (just installed a Ricoh 7210x in March, replaced a konica), some nice newer equipment like a duplo 646 and dbm 150 and some well functioning older workhorse finishers…. Our monthly equipment costs our relatively low, labor costs are minimal, and we rarely see service, machine just runs (for perspective I put your volume on just this machine in about a month).

 

[warlegs]

Hi Everyone,

First, thanks to all of you for your posts and willingness to spread your knowledge to people like me. I acquired a print shop late last year and this is my first experience in the industry.

I have a Canon iP C7000VP and Canon iP C7010VP both with a decent amount of clicks on them. Recently, GFC has informed me the 7000 is basically unsupported and they are no longer making parts for the machine. I have been preparing for this, knowing that the machine was going to have a moratorium regardless of the "odometer". That said, I am not necessarily ready to go into big debt or absorb a large lease payment each month given the current economy and how new I am to this world.

We do around 300K color and b&w prints of all different sizes and paper weights a month between our three digital presses.

I have had my eye on some used equipment I have seen on various sites. I had a lot of success with an auction site and an envelope printer a couple months back. That was an easy buy, I knew exactly the need and there were a handful of solutions for that need.

I appreciate the service contract I have with GFC and it's ease. For that reason I am looking at another Canon press to fill the need. They also service Ricoh so that would be within consideration as well. But, the larger obstacle is that I don't even know what is out there and I am being pressed (pun intended) to make a decision more quickly than I would prefer. In a perfect world I would attend some trade shows and buy a couple beers for one of you in exchange for some brain-picking on the subject.

Sorry for the long-winded message but I was hoping to give you all a quick background so you could throw any advice my way. Bottom line, I am asking for a couple things. If I am going to buy a used Canon press are there models to shoot for? It seems like all the way thru the 10010 the print resolution is the same and there are not any huge new improvements they offer. How does the numbering system work with Canon? I cannot seem to find a clear explanation. For instance, is a Imagepress C750 older or newer or better than a C800, and is a C810 better than both? My goal is to have a daily workhorse that can supplement the 7010 and possibly even add something to our print arsenal that we don't offer today. I also have an uphill battle getting GFC to agree to put a used copier on their service contract. Any experience with that is appreciated as well.

Finally, is there something that makes more sense, I like to think that I have basically three machines that do virtually the same exact thing just one is older than the other. Does it make sense to try to acquire a different brand (again, used machine) that has other capabilities? I have had several salespeople stop by with brochures printed on their newest technology. I am sure they are out of my price range but there is definitely some cool stuff out there.

Sorry I know this is a lot and I am sort of all over the place but I thought this could get me started and all of you wonderful people can mock me then provide some good information. Thanks in advance!

Justin

Damn man, not sure if picked the best time to jump into this hot mess! Hopefully you can still get paper and iron out your machine issues. Best of luck!!

 

[TJPrinter]

Yikes, those are old machines for that type of volume. If you’re doing 300,000 clicks a month and they’re all color, saving just $.01 a click for a new machine would amount to a savings of $3,000 a month. That will get a couple very nice and up to date machines. You may even be able to lower your color rate even more. Even if you only do 150,000 color there's still a significant savings for a new service contract. A used press will always have a higher click rate. I prefer to replace at the end of each lease.

The C710, C810 and C910 are all the same machines and they are current models. The only difference between them is the speed. 70 ppm, 80 ppm and 90 ppm. They basically just charge you more for the C910 and then slow it down and charge you less for the C710 & C810.

You really need to get your sales rep from Canon (or other vendor) in to give you some solid numbers on bringing in some new equipment. You’ll end up paying for new leases but you'll save on your click rates/service. And of course they’ll run and keep you and your customers happier. Good luck.

 

[SlvrBlltDwgPnd]

I have no real experience (demos only) with modern Canon machines.

The problem with used (especially color) digital presses is of course the relatively short service life…if you buy a 3-5 year old machine you may only get 3-5 more years before they put you in the same boat.., but also the service charges are much higher, you probably will have a large upfront cost to get the machine up to spec and on a service contract, and your machine may not be as reliable as you like. In many cases, IMHO, you don’t always save money with a used digital press. BW press I would sometimes be more comfortable with because they are less complex and less quality critical.

I’ve had employers with both strategies. One employer had 30k square feet full of 20 year old BW Xerox machines, 10-15 year old color, and 30-50 year old bindery equipment…most of that shit we spent all day fighting, reprinting, fighting with service, tons of labor wasted, and our service contracts were high as hell (much higher than a lease payment…i did the accounting when I was there) and when they eventually went out of business 9/10 machines were still there rotting in the shop because nobody wanted them / worthless. Eventually we did have to get out of our color presses and into two smaller leased units, otherwise we were literally broken down every 2000 copies.

I currently work somewhere with a leased digital press (just installed a Ricoh 7210x in March, replaced a konica), some nice newer equipment like a duplo 646 and dbm 150 and some well functioning older workhorse finishers…. Our monthly equipment costs our relatively low, labor costs are minimal, and we rarely see service, machine just runs (for perspective I put your volume on just this machine in about a month

Thanks kslight! the leased equipment does sound like the right way to go. At this point the replacement I am trying to make is for only one of our back-up units. I will probably save the lease for a new one to replace our workhorse. thanks again!

 

[SlvrBlltDwgPnd]

Damn man, not sure if picked the best time to jump into this hot mess! Hopefully you can still get paper and iron out your machine issues. Best of luck!!

Thanks! Yes, when I started I was able to order paper, and get this...envelopes and have them within a week or so. I suppose if I survive this, someday it will be amazing when I am able to just order and receive what I want on-time and without a price increase daily.

 

[SlvrBlltDwgPnd]

Yikes, those are old machines for that type of volume. If you’re doing 300,000 clicks a month and they’re all color, saving just $.01 a click for a new machine would amount to a savings of $3,000 a month. That will get a couple very nice and up to date machines. You may even be able to lower your color rate even more. Even if you only do 150,000 color there's still a significant savings for a new service contract. A used press will always have a higher click rate. I prefer to replace at the end of each lease.

The C710, C810 and C910 are all the same machines and they are current models. The only difference between them is the speed. 70 ppm, 80 ppm and 90 ppm. They basically just charge you more for the C910 and then slow it down and charge you less for the C710 & C810.

You really need to get your sales rep from Canon (or other vendor) in to give you some solid numbers on bringing in some new equipment. You’ll end up paying for new leases but you'll save on your click rates/service. And of course they’ll run and keep you and your customers happier. Good luck.

Thanks TJ, that is exactly what I was looking for. i really appreciate your help. That is awesome. I am going to contact my salesman. Thank you thank you thank you. You are someone I would have that beer for.

 

[namelessentity]

We're a mostly Canon shop so I can help with some of it.

The 8000/10000 are the same machine, just speed licenses. The newer line is the 10010 and the 9010. Again, just speed licenses for the models, but there are some upgrades to the 8000/10000 engine. Mostly in-line calibration and some tweaks to improve reliability as far as I know.

The 750/850 were replaced by the 710/810. I have no idea why they used lower numbers, but the newer ones support heavier media and some minor engine improvements. Personally, I think the 3 digit models are just fancy office printers, and I would quit my job if someone tried to make me use one as a real production printer.

The 10000 we have is very similar to the 7010 you have, so there's basically nothing to learn. Same paper registration, pretty much the same paper trays, just without all the stupid issues like tail edge fading and terrible print quality on uncoated media.

According to my sales guy, all of the Imagepress lines use the same toner technology, so print quality is mostly the same across the models.