PDF not honoring Black overprinting. ID CS4

[Gregg]

We've been running into some problems, and can't seem to figure out the cause.

Issue:
When creating a PDF, from a .ps file out of InDesign CS4, the process Black is not overprinting. So when viewing your seps, in Acrobat, the 100K, or any screen of K text is knocking-out of the underlying elements - instead of overprinting. The InDesign file is correct. When you look at seps in ID the overprinting is fine, so it has something to do with the .ps file being created. The postscript specs are: Printer = Postscript file. PPD = Adobe PDF 9.0. Leave color unchanged.

The extremely odd part is that it works fine on my computer, but not on any of my colleagues. It's not Distiller, because if I rip the .ps my colleagues can distill a functional PDF. But is they rip the .ps we're screwed. All of our computers share the same build?!?!

InDesign CS4/Mac 10.5.8

Anyone have any suggestions?

 

[Colorblind]

Just a quick guess here: in Acrobat 9 on your Output Preview palette, is "Simulate Overprinting" checked? It's just besides the "Ink Manager" button.

 

[Gregg]

Yes, sorry, should have mentioned that.

That check box is selected, and the General Preference for Use Overprint Preview = Always.

 

[macphenom]

Any reason you are going to ps? Why not create the pdf natively out of InDesign. Have you checked the prefs under "Appearance Of Black" to make sure Black overprinting is checked.

 

[leonardr]

When creating a PDF, from a .ps file out of InDesign CS4, the process Black is not overprinting.

First issue - do NOT produce Postscript out of ID. Use File->Export. You will get a MUCH higher fidelity PDF.

Second - use PDF/X(-1a). Take advantage of international standards for prepress/printing. There is no reason not to, and LOTS of reasons to...

So when viewing your seps, in Acrobat, the 100K, or any screen of K text is knocking-out of the underlying elements - instead of overprinting.

Meaning you are using Output Preview to view the document?

And this is Acrobat 9, yes?

Use Overprint Preview = Always

Just a warning that if you use this computer to view non-press documents, you do NOT want that setting.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Question. If you distill a same PS on both computers is it the same? If you distill in one computer but create PS on both is it the same? You must find out if the error is in the PS or the Distiller!

In your Print setting you have some settings that might affect the result.
Output:
Colour Composite CMYK or InRip separations? (Composite CMYK is my preference)
checkbox text as black– should be off
checkbox "Simulate overprint" I think should be on to ensure non PS devices print same as PS device

Also check in InDesign that you have Transparency blend space set to CMYK or you are navigating at the abyss.

Other places are Color Management settings (Document or proof?) who handles color printer or indesign.

Advanced: What transparenct flattening. Do the settings have the same value?

I'd be interested to hear if you find any differences here

If you find it is Distiller that handles things differently we can look at settings there.
Also I tend to agree that export to a PDFx is best, but it is nice to be sure what happens where and why. Most likely it is not a bug ;p

 

[Gregg]

Thanks for all the feedback. I'd like to stay on topic, so, for now, let's ignore the ability to export directly (I have several reasons why we go to .PS, that I can bring up later). So let's act as if we can't export, and have to go to .ps.

Yes, my preferences, in ID, are to Handle Blacks Accurately.

Lukas, it's definitely not Distiller. If I rip the .PS my assistant can create a good PDF on her computer. However, if she rips the .PS, neither one of us can get a good PDF out of Distiller.

Color Output = Color Leave Unchanged

Text as Black is grayed out.

Simulate Overprint is grayed out when Color Leave Unchanged is selected.

Color Management = None

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

You say appearance of black is accurate, but is the checkbox "Overprint [Black] Swatch at 100%" checked?

What are your color settings files in both computers?
(Leave colour unchanged is usually only for flows where you also have spot colors)
Also you didn't tell me: Edit > transparency Blend space? confirm it is CMYK!

Are your transparency flattener settings the same? (preferably High resolution on both)

 

[Gregg]

Hi, Lukas.

Yes, Overprint [Black] Swatch at 100% is checked.
Edit - Transparency Blend Space = CMYK

Here's an additional twist that I just realized. This issue is only occurring when using process black, whether it be the default [Black] swatch, or a custom process swatch that is 100k. If I change all of the black text to a spot swatch that is 100K, the overprinting is retained in the .ps and PDF.

So, for example. I have a magenta background with some text on top. The text is [Black] at 100%. I view my seps in ID and when I turn off the black I am left with the magenta background. I then rip a .PS and Distill a PDF and when I turn off the black plate in Acrobat I am left with a knock-out of where the text is.

If I ran that same test, only with a spot 100K swatch, everything would be fine.

If I ran that same test, with a process 100K swatch, one that is not [Black], I run into the same knock-out issue.

Now when I say I run into this issue, I mean my assistant's computer. I can run all three tests and get the right result on my computer. Our settings are all the same (at least as far as I can tell).

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

hey Gregg,

What a pain...

You didn't confirm the transparency flattener settings/presets?

I am wondering if it could be a setting that is hung. Could you try printing to a PS, with Composite CMYK. Then if you like go back to Leave unchanged.
What I am interested in is if you go to Composite CMYK is simulate over print on in both cases?
Also wondering if before going to unchanged the assistants computer used Composite RGB, or something like that?

 

[Gregg]

DOH! Sorry, thought I covered all bases with my last post. Transparency Flattener = High Resolution. Presets are default.

I'll give the Composite CMYK a shot. I have always used Leave Unchanged since I am sending this to a vendor (usually unknown at the time of PDF creation). So, I don't want to bother with the Color Handling and Printer Profile. I just want to leave CMYK numbers as-is.

I have to head out of the office for a while. I'll get back to you later today, or tomorrow.

Thanks for all your help, Lukas.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

If you use the create "Postscript to file" and then choose "Device Independent".

Personally I don't think there is a truly device independent CMYK flow...*but letts not get OT with details.

 

[Colorblind]

I'll give the Composite CMYK a shot. I have always used Leave Unchanged since I am sending this to a vendor (usually unknown at the time of PDF creation). So, I don't want to bother with the Color Handling and Printer Profile. I just want to leave CMYK numbers as-is.

As long as the document profile and printer profile match in the Color Management tab of ID print dialog box (I may be wrong but they usually do by default) there wont be any CMYK to CMYK color conversions

 

[Stephen Marsh]

OK, if InDesign/Preferences/Appearance of Black/Overprinting of [Black] - is checked...

What happens if you select the text at the object level and use the Attributes palette to manually set the text fills as overprint?


Best,

Stephen Marsh

 

[WharfRat]

Is the "Black" in question
native InDesign Black
or
in a placed Illustrator file?

MSD

 

[Gregg]

Lukas, I was able to get it to work by using Composite CMYK.

You mentioned: "If you use the create "Postscript to file" and then choose "Device Independent". Were you referring to the Printer and PPD? If I choose those options the Setup panel is completely grayed out.

What I used was:
Printer = Postscript File
PPD = Adobe PDF 9.0
Output = Composite CMYK
Color Management =
Document Profile US Web SWOP v2
Color Handling = Let Postscript Determine
Preserve CMYK numbers checked
Simulate Overprint grayed out

This worked. So it appears to have something to do with process black (whether it's the default swatch in ID or a custom process black swatch) and the Composite Leave Unchanged option. Still not certain why it works fine on my computer, but not my assistants, but at least we have a workaround.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

@Gregg
...thinking if you go to the summary tab of the print dialog box you can save summary. Could you save the summary for both computers and then use a compare program to verify? Also like to know that the ADPDF9.PPD files on both computers are same size and same creation and edit date. If you like you can send me PM or email (lukas(at)artcoach.se) work arounds are great for temporary solutions but till one finds out what happened the temporary solution risks becoming a permanent one ;P