Positive Ink Feed Simulation Test

[turbotom1052]

I hope that next week there will be some results from the simulation testing. A few people have said they will try the test and it should be interesting to see how they view the results. I hope they are able to follow through.

There are strong opinions on both sides of this issue and only test results will help to provide an objective view.

On the traditional side, a failure of the simulation test might make many very happy because it would support their view but it also would lead to the same old status quo situation without much hope of any great improvement in the offset process. No great opportunity to challenge the continued advance of digital presses.

On the positive ink feed side, a successful test result opens a whole new world of opportunities to move the offset process forward and gives the potential for press operators to continue their craft with a process that is more consistent and predictable. A real challenge to other printing processes.

I hope everyone has a good weekend and I hope some are planning to do the test.

Erik

Eric my testing of your theory will not be forthcoming in the very foreseeable future as im out of work with an injury and not sure of when i will be returning. However based on what youve said in this very post it would appear to me that there is no test result other than the ones that support your position that you would consider to be valid. your wrong when you say that a result that supports my position would make me happy. The reason i say this is because i have no horse in this race. You on the other hand do have a horse in the race and a result that supports your position stands to profit you.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Eric my testing of your theory will not be forthcoming in the very foreseeable future as im out of work with an injury and not sure of when i will be returning. However based on what youve said in this very post it would appear to me that there is no test result other than the ones that support your position that you would consider to be valid. your wrong when you say that a result that supports my position would make me happy. The reason i say this is because i have no horse in this race. You on the other hand do have a horse in the race and a result that supports your position stands to profit you.

Hope you recover from your injuries soon.

Do you think the industry will not benefit if I am right?

Do you think that finding out what is true has no benefit to you?

I only benefit if I am right but the industry would also. I am not selling snake oil.

 

[gordo]

However based on what youve said in this very post it would appear to me that there is no test result other than the ones that support your position that you would consider to be valid. your wrong when you say that a result that supports my position would make me happy. The reason i say this is because i have no horse in this race. You on the other hand do have a horse in the race and a result that supports your position stands to profit you.

I don't think it matters who has or does not have a horse in the race.

This test is basic high school science.

The reason we were forced to take science in high school was to understand the scientific method because our teachers knew that we could use it in our lives to help answer questions that had not yet been thought of. Basically it is a way to objectively ask and resolve unknowns by making observations and doing experiments. The steps of the scientific method are to:
a) Ask a question
b) Do background research
c) Construct a hypothesis
d) Test the hypothesis by doing an experiment. It is important the experiment to be a fair test which occurs when only one factor (variable) changes and that "apples" are indeed compared to "apples"
e) Analyze the data and draw a conclusion
f) Communicate the results

I think that that is what Erik is trying to do.

If the results prove him right then he is either right or the test method was not correct. The test methodology would then have to be examined for any flaws and/or another test conducted.

If the results prove him him wrong then either his hypothesis is incorrect or the test method was not correct. The hypothesis would have to be restated or refined and/or the test methodology would have to be examined for any flaws and/or another test conducted.

If the test is inconclusive then the test methodology would have to be examined for any flaws and another test conducted.

Whether he is right or wrong the industry would benefit from the information.

If he is right it's unlikely that Erik would profit (not invented here syndrome, we knew this all along but..."there's no market" "it makes equipment too complex" "there's no demand" etc.)

best, gordon p

 

[Al Ferrari]

Very well stated Gordon. But I frankly do not understand your last comment: "If he is right it's unlikely that Erik would benefit...".

It seems to me that he would benefit along with the rest of us with this new knowledge and expanded understanding of of the lithographic process.

Al

 

[gordo]

Very well stated Gordon. But I frankly do not understand your last comment: "If he is right it's unlikely that Erik would benefit...".

It seems to me that he would benefit along with the rest of us with this new knowledge and expanded understanding of of the lithographic process.

Al

I should have written "profit" as it was in response to what "turbotom1052" wrote: "You on the other hand do have a horse in the race and a result that supports your position stands to profit you." I've now edited the post accordingly.
Thanks!

best, gordon p

 

[Deleted member 16349]

I should have written "profit" as it was in response to what "turbotom1052" wrote: "You on the other hand do have a horse in the race and a result that supports your position stands to profit you." I've now edited the post accordingly.
Thanks!

best, gordon p

Hey, I wouldn't mind a profit. Don't give press manufacturers a wrong idea.

 

[Green Printer]

There are many aspects of this thread that some would consider controversial while others think enlightening is much more apropriate. We have now reached apoint of success or failure per Gordo's thread. If successful is Erik still allowed to peddle his transfer blade on the forum or will he have too use the standard channels for advertising as the other vendors.
Imop Erik's promo of the ITB has been the longest running no cost promo of any technology or product I have ever seen in any industry.
I wish Erik well

 

[Deleted member 16349]

There are many aspects of this thread that some would consider controversial while others think enlightening is much more apropriate. We have now reached apoint of success or failure per Gordo's thread. If successful is Erik still allowed to peddle his transfer blade on the forum or will he have too use the standard channels for advertising as the other vendors.
Imop Erik's promo of the ITB has been the longest running no cost promo of any technology or product I have ever seen in any industry.
I wish Erik well

Pat, it is obvious you don't wish me well. The technology you talk about is something I do not discuss here anymore. You and others bring it up but I do not talk about it. It is not a product available to the general printing public.

I have been up front always with the discussion of positive ink feed. There are many ways to have positive ink feed. What about you with your business interests?

I find it not so up front for you, hiding behind the Green Printer name, to promote BestChem products, which seems to be run by Berger family members. Can you confirm this or correct me on this issue?

Yes for a long time I have been trying to convince the printing industry that a solution to the ink water balance problem is due to how the press is designed and can be corrected. What is so wrong with that? Is it because it might prove your views to be not so correct?

 

[Green Printer]

The battle continues. Before we go any further I do run a 4 color offset press and average 25 hours per week and have continuously run an offset press since 1975. The observations I report are hands on everyday experience.
One group says all mechanical another chemistry and ink. Talking to hundreds of pressman and there observations and conclusions made is what I have reported. Having tested hundreds of ink and water combinations for just about every ink and chemistry manufacturer you see patterns over a period of 30 years. The patterns are always related to the base chemistry used and are quite predictable. There are only 2 basic types of fountain solutions available. One group is made by hundreds of firms the other by 2 firms. The hundreds of manufacturers names might be different but they are basically all the same with a few minor changes. One group will always operate in a flux of semi stability while the other is always stable. One group has an extremely large operating window the other due to its chemical composition will always be a much smaller operating window.
I have also seen press releases on Bestchem. Doing an internet search for Berger gives you 36,000,000 hits.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

The battle continues. Before we go any further I do run a 4 color offset press and average 25 hours per week and have continuously run an offset press since 1975. The observations I report are hands on everyday experience.
One group says all mechanical another chemistry and ink. Talking to hundreds of pressman and there observations and conclusions made is what I have reported. Having tested hundreds of ink and water combinations for just about every ink and chemistry manufacturer you see patterns over a period of 30 years. The patterns are always related to the base chemistry used and are quite predictable. There are only 2 basic types of fountain solutions available. One group is made by hundreds of firms the other by 2 firms. The hundreds of manufacturers names might be different but they are basically all the same with a few minor changes. One group will always operate in a flux of semi stability while the other is always stable. One group has an extremely large operating window the other due to its chemical composition will always be a much smaller operating window.
I have also seen press releases on Bestchem. Doing an internet search for Berger gives you 36,000,000 hits.

Pat, 36K hits are a lot. When I search for Berger and Bestchem I get two in particular that are of interest. Joyce Berger is described as the president of Bestchem in Linkedin and Pete Berger is described in some hits as a press technician or sales rep for Bestchem. But this could be just a huge coincidence.

I have never said chemistry is not important to the process. It is certainly required to have the right chemistry for the lithographic properties needed at the plate. I also have no reason to think that Bestchem has poor products. I am sure they are quite good.

My argument has always been that the density control part of the problem is mainly related to the transport of ink into the press. Chemicals can affect the transport of ink into the press now but the fundamental solution is to change the process so that ink is transported into the press, independent of the affects of chemicals, temperature,etc have on the ink in the roller train. Positive ink feed does this. The purpose of the simulation test is to objectively show this.

 

[JOHNYPRINT]

It is claimed that the fundamental problem of ink/water balance and its related density control problem in offset lithographic presses is due to the lack of control of the ink feed into these presses. A solution to these problems is a positive ink feed, which goes directly into the high speed roller train and which would not be affected by numerous variables. (TAGA 1997 Nikkanen)


Hi eric
I have read throgh your ideas on "positive ink feed", above is a piece from your original post in this discussion. Where it says "control of ink into these presses", i take it that this refers to the mechanical action of the ink vibrator roller between the duct and the top of the roller train. later you talk about ink damp balance. Is your theory based on a machine that would have the ink duct continuously connected to the ink roller train constantly feeding a small amount of ink, as opposed to an intermitant supply by the duct vibrator.
The two different systems would still be putting a physically determined amount of ink into the ink train.Are you saying that the imbalance/inconsistant feed of ink in the traditional manner is going to affect or be affected by the damp.
Looking at the issue as a pressman, if you have problems holding a constant balance of ink on the printed sheet you would check your rollers,(ink and damp) to make sure you were getting a constant supply to plate. The press i am working at the moment is a Roland 700 series and you can alter the timing of the ink vibrator from the ink duct depending on if you have more demand for ink at the front or back of the plate i think hiedelberg has this feature, i'm sure other manufacturers do as well, if you had a continuous transfer of ink from the duct you would lose this element of ink control.
I repect your theory, i'm just trying to think it all through, do you run a printing press where you can try your theory out.
hoping to understand your theory better, regards john h

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Where it says "control of ink into these presses", i take it that this refers to the mechanical action of the ink vibrator roller between the duct and the top of the roller train. later you talk about ink damp balance. Is your theory based on a machine that would have the ink duct continuously connected to the ink roller train constantly feeding a small amount of ink, as opposed to an intermitant supply by the duct vibrator.
The two different systems would still be putting a physically determined amount of ink into the ink train.Are you saying that the imbalance/inconsistant feed of ink in the traditional manner is going to affect or be affected by the damp.

Johnyprint,

My emphasis is on consistent volume of ink to be fed into the roller train. The method is not so important as long as it is done correctly. This could be continuous or intermittent. Both would work as long as the intermittent interval is short relative to the coverage. High coverage needs a more continuous ink feed or very short intervals of intermittent feed, while lower coverage can work quite well with intermittent ink feeds that have larger intervals. What is important is that the volume of ink feed is consistent on average, which does not exist in conventional presses. Things like water, press speed and temperature affect the volumetric ink feed in conventional presses. I hope you followed that.

The positive ink feed concept is aimed at maintaining a consistent ink feed to address the average steady state density level. Things like the timing of the intermittent ductor roller, mechanical ghosting, etc. will cause disturbances about the average density. Reducing these disturbances is the responsibility of the roller train design. So in short. The ink feed rate determines the average steady state density and the roller train affects the disturbances about that steady state value. Both need to be worked on for a better press design.

The theories have been tested on press.

 

[Al Ferrari]

"I have read throgh your ideas on "positive ink feed", above is a piece from your original post in this discussion. Where it says "control of ink into these presses", i take it that this refers to the mechanical action of the ink vibrator roller between the duct and the top of the roller train. later you talk about ink damp balance. Is your theory based on a machine that would have the ink duct continuously connected to the ink roller train constantly feeding a small amount of ink, as opposed to an intermitant supply by the duct vibrator."


Hi Johny,

Let me try and pinch hit for Erik, although it's his baby:

For the test, we want the ductor action impeded or the roller removed.

For the theory, a ductor method of supplying ink is a two way avenue for both ink and water to and from the ink fountain. A positive ink feed would be one in which ink could flow into the roller train in only one direction. Therefore water could not make it into the ink fountain. The importance of this is that water would have no effect what so ever on the rate of ink transfer into the ink train. Note that nothing is said of constant contact.

The Rolland and Heidelberg features you refer to do not accomplish transfer of ink in only one direction. Erik has an idea for an inexpensive way to attain such ink transfer. But that's not the subject here.

The simulation test is proposed precisely because it will provide a close approximation to such an ink transfer without the need of an equipment modification.

Does that clear things up a bit for you?

Regards,

Al

EDIT: Erik beat me to it.

 

[JOHNYPRINT]

reading through the initial instructions of the test ,you have a volume of ink on the rollers you increase the damp, take readings and then reduce the damp back to normal, monitor ink as you go. i'm not sure this test will tell you what you need to know.
printing is about balancing ink and damp on your rollers not trying to keep them seperate, eric talks about a constant volume of ink on the rollers influenced by such factors as press speed, most machines these days have adjustable characteritic curves to allow for these fluctuations, both for ink and damp.
I respect your opinions but there are to many contradictions in what exactly your trying to achieve, sorry if i am missing a bigger picture , but based on what i have read there is nothing that a qualified printer would not already know or technology that is'nt already available. balancing ink and water is always going to be a hands on job, this plane wont fly itself. please let me know what machinery you run, ?how old is it.
regards john h

 

[Al Ferrari]

Hi Johny,

The big picture you are missing is that printing is about putting ink on a substrate such as paper. Balancing ink and water is what you have to do when using lithography. For a method not involving such balancing, consider letterpress. Of course that has many limitations, but the point is that water is not an inherent part of printing. The excellent technologies you refer to do an admirable job, but at a very high price.

Give yourself a fair chance to consider something simpler. The test we have proposed is not the final answer either. But we hope it will open up some closed minds. I promise it will not hurt.

Al

 

[Deleted member 16349]

sorry if i am missing a bigger picture ,

balancing ink and water is always going to be a hands on job,

Johnyprint, yes you are missing the big picture. Please be patient and reread some of these posts. Right now you are not really getting the idea and it is not making sense to you.

You say that balancing ink and water is always going to be a hands on job. With that kind of statement, you can not be open to other possibilities.

What is different with what we are saying and trying to show with this test is that ink can be set and then any adjustments with water will not affect ink feed and therefore density. You can not do that now on conventional presses.

Please be patient and lets see how things turn out. If in the end, you still are not sure of what is the purpose of the test and general effort, I can't help that.

 

[Bloodsaler]

I don`t quite catch what the positive ink feed simulation should mean in chinese.But I guess it something related to the press design.
For Erik,do you have the picture of the SID target test form? From your statement i don`t really know what it look like? May be the because grammar error in translation.
From the data I got from my print house average printing sample, actually there is the situation that solid density not too high,but the dot gain became very large, the problem may cause by the ink-water balance.The water level is high,but not affect the solid area,I guess.

 

[bonafide1978]

what a interesting thread. I like it

 

[Deleted member 16349]

For Erik,do you have the picture of the SID target test form?

From the data I got from my print house average printing sample, actually there is the situation that solid density not too high,but the dot gain became very large, the problem may cause by the ink-water balance.The water level is high,but not affect the solid area,I guess.

Bloodsaler,

I have attached a PDF file of a test form that Al Ferrari was kind enough to make for me. Al told me that the test should not cost too much so I have started to talk with printers about running the test myself. So Al's form is our first attempt to do this test. (note: the form maybe changed ) It will be for a single colour only and right now I will start with black.

The form has screen patches and I am curious at how they behave. I have only one test result for a positive ink feed method where dot gain was looked at. It gave a surprising result in that the measured dot gain did not go up when water went up. I and some other engineers were expecting to see dot gain increase. I can't remember if the quality of the print of those screens changed. Probably did.

I can not explain that single test result but I am curious to see how dot gain is affected on this simulation test. It may be that dot gain is something that is affected by differently by different paper ink fount combinations.

Anyhow one must understand that the water level will be pushed way above what normally would be run on press so dot gains at those levels really would not represent normal printing conditions. Increasing the water level in this test is just to show that SID is not significantly affected by changes in water.

The test is mainly about the independence of density relative to changes in water when the ink feed is taken out of the problem. That is why it is a simulation of positive ink feed at a low ink coverage level. Dot gain changes are just an added observation.

 

[Al Ferrari]

bonafide1978 and all others,

The thread t will be more interesting if you participate in the test. As you can see by looking at the pdf posted by Erik, you don't even need blank stock. It can be makeready stock as long as there is a small clean area free of print for the test targets, and you can locate the image any where on your sheet and you can use whatever color is already on the rollers. The only other things you need are a plate and a little press time.

Nay sayers, skeptics, and supporters alike, please try the test yourselves.

Al