Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

[macdudeken]

can anyone tell me exactly what these sales guys from Kodak mean when they say "Prinergy is the ONLY fully automated workflow available today"

I use Rampage and as far as I can tell, it IS fully automated!

MDK

 

[Avisciciulli]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

Heck, if I wanted to, I could run ApogeeX from my house. or better yet, not at all. I could just have a designer drop a PDF in and kick a plate out with no user intervention.

Doesn't mean that plate(s) would come out right though...

I'd kick the rep right out the door. All this stuff is based around similar Adobe technology. To make claims of exclusivity just makes him look stupid.

FWIW, I'd have posted his name, but then, I'm kind of evil.

 

[macdudeken]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

good point.

I'll let you know how it goes. This wasn't my idea. I'm all over Rampage.

 

[assinippi]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

LMAO! Where are you getting files that are vaguely ready to print? How do you deal with that 2/C job that comes in with CMYK graphics. No bleed. Fonts not embedded. Overprint settings used in KO text. Files the wrong size. Maybe you have some tools that could be useful, but in the real world of designers creating "press ready" pdfs, I doubt that you or anyone else has a solution that comes close to fully automating prepress.

 

[imageworks]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

We run Rampage 10.5, I can't speak for the Agfa system. I saw a demo of the prinergy last week and was blown away. I think the word "automated" depends on how you define it. Prinergy offers "if-then-else" capabilities to its workflow. This is a HUGE step to automation. Rampage offers only a linear flow and if something isn't right, it craps out - requiring operator intervention. Prinergy will take the job from preflight right through to plate and file archiving without intervention, and if a certain spec is off, it can switch to an alternate path - which is more than Rampage can do. This doen't help if the files you get are completely no good, but if you prep the files properly, it is more "automated" than rampage. Combine prinergy with full JDF and it really becomes interesting. Prinergy can send long print runs to plate and short runs to your digital press. The biggest advantage to the prinergy workflow is when it is combined with online order processing and online template based design. With online ordering you could "close-loop" the design process to eliminate problems like no bleed or extra colours.

I haven't switched to prinergy yet. I don't know if I wanted to be locked in to full "Kodak" solution package. I like the flexibility of third party solutions.

I assume Rampage will follow with something similar - If they could only forget about object based trapping and focus on more important things.

 

[macdudeken]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

well said Anthony. I can see your point.
We're a Fuji shop and selling us Prinergy would enable Kodak to replace everything- plates, chemistry, ink, etc within our plant, which is what they have in mind.

something interesting is the "'lights out" prepress Kodak speaks of. This is where they are headed. No more prepress as we know it.

an earlier post mentioned "what about no bleed, rgb files which need to be 2/c process, etc". 2 scenarios would happen here: the file would be rejected within preflight and the customer would need to fix them, or operator intervention. I can tell you without a doubt these files would be fixed within prepress which shows the need for a qualified prepress operator.

 

[RickWhiteman]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

I'm in no hurry to fully automate prepress. Speeding it up is fine, but I sure as heck don't want to make myself obsolete!

 

[John W]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

I would like to add that an automated scenario will only work if the file is perfect and I see ones that are perhaps 2-3% of the time. Can this number improve. Probably, but I doubt it can make it past 50%!
Secondly, I'm aware that files will go to one system and be fine (eg: HP indigo with an HqRip inside and screw up when sent to a different system (eg: HP Indigo with a Creo Rip inside). How does an auto flow see that and fix it?
Answer; everybody with APE and no other; everybody using Adobe software only (even then, Adobe versioning produces different results)!
AFAIK, operator intervention is and will be the only way to ride jobs properly unless of course you are talking closed loop/in house prep; even then I wonder of it's really possible. nd that op better have decent pay or they leave for decent pay elsewhere (if they're good).
One major cock up on a large heavy special stock (you know it's the one that will get cocked up) may/will wipe out many a firm.

John W

 

[UncleSam]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

Every workflow can do some degree of automation. It is no doubt about it. But I don't think Prinergy is the ONLY one, maybe it means just for Kodak.

I'm using EskoArtwork's Odystar 3.0.4, it is totally automate PDF workflow and I can automate almost anything I want within our prepress department. I can have a workflow automate to combine all single page PDF to a printer spread stitch booklet. I can have a workflow to reduce all our circular PDF file to 11"x17" and send to our Xerox to print without even open the PDF itself. I can setup a workflow for our remote location production team to drop the PDF and auto send the email back to them with a Pitstop report attached so that they know what's wrong with their file before our prepress tech even get the job. Of course we do have a workflow to automate all the preflight process with Pitstop actions to fix the file for our prepress department.

 

[gordo]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

This is a very simple example of Prinergy rules-based automation:

http://www2.creo.com/video/Prinergy/Rules_Based_Auto/rba_anim_006.html

gordo

 

[michaelejahn]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

Before we beat up on some unnamed - and unable to defend his comments - sales rep (from Kodak or otherwise) - I think we might take a moment to consider a few recent announcements that - as far as I can tell - have only been announced by Kodak.

http://www.svettisku.cz/buxus/gener...us_svettisku=484bf31aafcd2ea77262ad2db75ff183

Large enterprise print service providers - like the US Department of State - who depend on running jobs in multiple plants in multiple counties - depend on Hiflex. With Creo's support of JDF and JMF, I think they can safely claim a certain level of automation that few other vendors have even considered trying to implement.

There are all manners of automation. I always remind people - "computers enable humans to make bigger mistakes faster" - many people are now digging deep into scripting multiple vendors solutions together using Gradual, but this is quite a different approach than using a single vendor - anyway - it is all in the eyes of the beholder, and frankly, how much money you are will to spend on your system and education. If they can make jets take off, fly and land without any human touching the controls, trust me, one can use algorithms to detect, repair and enhance pages before printing them.

Companies like Kodak, HP and Xerox are all investing heavily in such technologies;

http://h30418.www3.hp.com/?rf=sitem...72509d47b28b54c1d790004&jumpid=reg_R1002_USEN

 

[PDL]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

I'm sure we've had this thread here before, but here's something to throw into the mix: http://www.esko.com/web/site.aspx?p=439

 

[marktonk]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

> {quote:title=michaelejahn wrote:}{quote}
> Large enterprise print service providers - like the US Department of State - who depend on running jobs in multiple plants in multiple counties - depend on Hiflex. With Creo's support of JDF and JMF, I think they can safely claim a certain level of automation that few other vendors have even considered trying to implement.
>
>

Hi Michael,

Yes, the Department of State has installed Hiflex as their MIS and installed Heidelberg Prinect Prepress Manager (formally know as Prinect Printready) as their JDF/JMF workflow to run in multiple countries. In addition, they also have installed our Suprasetter 105 CtP's.

You are right, there are all manners of worklfow automation. Here is a link to what Andrew Tribute had to say about automation and Prinect.

[Get Prinected - Real Integration|http://printceoblog.com/2008/06/get-prinected-real-integration]

It is also interesting that this thread has split into two different threads.

[Prinergy the ONLY fully automated workflow?? |http://printplanet.com/discuss/thread.jspa?threadID=2605&tstart=0]

Regards,

Mark Tonkovich
Heidelberg USA
Product Manager, CtP & Proofing

 

[botas]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

This is a sad state of affairs when a salesman has to resort to such statements, he only has to go back to the start of Prinergy to see how it was started.(Get to know your product and have a basic understanding of the opposition before making such statements this is my advise)
If this salesman had attended the recent Drupa exhibition in Dusseldorf and had gone past the Heidelberg stand and seen a live demonstartion(not canned) he would have a understood what a workflow consists of and how JDF/JMF links a complete printshop with an outside world.

There are many automated workflows some are more productive than others and only by having a demo on a job of your own will you see how userfliendly or productive they are.

I am sorry to say but this salesman sounds like an used car salesman. No more comment

 

[JerryM]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

HI,

I do tech support for a small company that makes workflow automation software. The company name is Objective Advantage (www.objectiveadvantage.com) and the software is called Symbio. I know at least one of our customers bought our software to replace Prinergy.

I joined this site to learn more about the printing industry, since my background is mostly in general IT support. I am curious to know if any of you have heard of Symbio and what your impression is. Our customers seem to use the software with digital presses more than conventional presses, but we have made some improvements to allow for more flexibility working with offset presses.

I am not a salesman, but I do believe that our software is a good investment. Symbio automates the workflow starting from a web to print system on to preflighting, layout, imposition, sending JDF instructions to the press and finisher and even tying in to our shipping system to automate the shipping process and print shipping labels, etc.

The software isn't cheap, but if used properly it can pay for itself in about 8 months. We're small and largely unknown, but starting to get some attention. One of our customers was awarded first place in the category of “Biggest improvement in quality production & customer responsiveness as a result of process automation.” from CIP4 largely due to installing Symbio.

I really am curious though, to hear what you think if you've heard anything about Symbio.

Jerry Mason

 

[PrepressDan]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

I will be the first to say that Kodak makes a good product. As well as Esko, Artwork Systems, fuji etc....

Each one has its benifits and its drawbacks. We are a multi facility shop and we have most of the workflows on the market. Each fits its own nitch. Backstage and Printergy are very simular in function (Database driven automation). But they both cost $$$. One of our Smaller shops uses Artwork Systems Odystar. It has more automation than a backstage or printergy without a Database. Actually it decision based automation based on Artworks own custom based PDF libraries (its pretty slick for the low cost). I have also made workflows with the other products and had great success. So shame on Kodak for stating that they are the only fully automated system. There are many good solutions, it comes down to customer service, price and the best fit for your needs

 

[mattbeals]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

Just remember that all of these "automated workflows" only automate a very small piece of the workflow. What about everything that happens before the job hits the RIP? That's where Enfocus SWITCH automates the workflow.

Before anyone goes dumping money into an upgraded/new/replacement automated workflow you should seriously look at automating the other 2/3rds of the workflow first. Then look at the RIP to make sure you really are getting all the performance out of it that you can.

 

[Static]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

We use Rampage Remote and Rampage to fulling automate everything. Customer sends pdfs via Rampage Remote and file automatically goes to their own job folder ,each folder has it own preset settings for ripping and trap. Pdfs automatically goes through Pitstop server and then back in to Rampage to RIP and Trap. Then automatically creates a FPO for quick imposition and a soft proof and puts that proof up on Rampage Remote for customer approval. Customer is notified that pages are ready for approval by Rampage Remote email and they log on and approve the pages which are exactly how it will print on press. Which is very important, kinda silly to have customer approve a non ripped pdf or any file that can change before it gets to press.

If pds fail in preflight for low res images the customer gets email notification and the customer fixes the problem and resends the pdf.

With this system we have customers sending in their job on the weekend and having it approved and ready to go before we even have it listed on the press schedule on Monday. Took awhile to get out customers on board the whole concept but now that they are they love it. We now have 85-90% of them sending their jobs in this way. It is really efficient , so much so that we reduced the prepress staff by 70%.

 

[macdudeken]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

why must the PDFs go through Pitstop server with rampage remote?

pitstop server isn't part of the rampage remote package, is it?

 

[Static]

Re: Prinergy the ONLY automated workflow???

You don't need to go through Pitstop Server. We just choose to do so to do that extra check to make sure files are above a certain DPI and to provide automatic emails of the problem pages to our customers so they can fix them.

If you don't have Pitstop Server (or don't want to use it) you can have Rampage check for lowres images but then it doesn't email the customer. So at that point the automatic workflow would basicly stop and wait for you to resolve the problem yourself or call the customer and ask for a correct file. The next version of Rampage will have built in Preflight .