printing on bond

[Alex Arriaza]

Good day fellow printers, a couple of months back i posted a problem in which the ink i was using on bond paper was picking up on the impression cylinder, the ink that was being remove from the paper was the ink on the front side, while we were printing the back side, i tried different types of inks during this time and haven't found the real cause of the problem, i only change 2 parameters one at the time during my tests, the paper and the inks.
This is the way i print, i print from 50K to 70K bond sheets, only the front side, and by the time im done, the front side is already "dry", so i turn the paper and continue with the back side, and then the problem occurs, this has been a real headache in long runs more than 10K i have to clean the cylinders every 2K!! this is absurd, any ideas? im using allied all star fountain solution without alcohol, can this problem be related to the fountain solution?

 

[printerpete]

Remind me What ink series your running? i seem to remember it was hostmann? Hostmann have a ink series called Endura Which Dries incredibly quick, so much so that you shouldnt leave it in the ducts overnight. Try that it worked for us.

Not sure About this but Endura might have been named by the Company we use, so if it is hostmann will list it as something else

 

[Alex Arriaza]

thanks for the reply, yes i was using hostmann resista and hostmann rapida, both of them did the same problem, i also tried inks from superior and from midwest ink, all of them produced the same defect, midwest ink was my best bet because of the soy base body of the ink but didnt deliver anything deferent, that is why im wondering if the problem is in the fountain solutions

 

[printerpete]

try to find out about endura as far as i know it is different to te rissta and reflecta. it is very agressive when it comes to drying, in fact if you open a tin the next day it will have a skin on it

 

[Laxmi Kant Kuthiala]

I had the same problem with black ink. Sicpa have a good black ink that eliminates the problem totally.

 

[Alex Arriaza]

i understand that sicpa is now part of flint group, at least the commercial inks, is this right?

how did you determined which ink was the one giving you trouble, im planning on doing some solids of each color and using the roller for the quick pick test ill try to determine which one picks up the most, so that way i can change only one ink.

another thing, does anyone know how the interaction between non alcohol fountain solution and ink works, since you cant change the Ph.

Thanks

 

[RGPW17100]

If you are using an alcohol sub how much are you using per gallon of water. Too much sub may cause problems for the driers in the ink.

 

[Laxmi Kant Kuthiala]

There was a black solid strip running across the sheet where the problem was most acute. Try a fast and hard drying ink instead of one that skins quickly but remains wet inside for longer.

 

[Alex Arriaza]

If you are using an alcohol sub how much are you using per gallon of water. Too much sub may cause problems for the driers in the ink.

im using a one step product from allied, its called all star, and like a every other offset product there is no label telling me what amount of alcohol substitute is on it, but i mix 3% on my water, that means i have 4.8PH and 1200Us

 

[Printdog]

Alex, This is picking what is happening to you. Many things can cause this to happen too much ink or water. If you have the tine to let it sit overnight this is the best cure. another thing you can do if you can't wait. clean back cylinder with a good plate cleaner then use a etch on it. This will get you more impressions before you have to clean.

Good luck

 

[Alex Arriaza]

Alex, This is picking what is happening to you. Many things can cause this to happen too much ink or water. If you have the tine to let it sit overnight this is the best cure. another thing you can do if you can't wait. clean back cylinder with a good plate cleaner then use a etch on it. This will get you more impressions before you have to clean.

Good luck

Thanks for the reply,

ive done everything and i even let the sheet sit over for over 48 hours, and this gave me worst results, actually we found out that the best cure for this is making the front and back the same day in that case we have no problem because the ink still fresh, i believe that the problem i have is the penetration on the paper fiber i believe that the ink`s body is not suitable for bond this ink is great when it comes to coated papers but as soon as we use it on matte finishes or bond we have tons of problems, i was wondering too about the interaction between the ink and the non alcohol fountain solution, because as i said before i believe something is making the ink dry in the middle and keeps tack on the top, and that makes the picking problem.

 

[Printdog]

Alex,
I have heard that when you run the first side if you don't wash your blanket the paper dust builds up and causes picking on the second side I have had picking problems on recycled paper more often then regular paper. People blame this on ink and fountain solution all the time, It ussally is the process that you do it in. If your back cylinder is dirty and lost the chrome look and is cloudy you may not be able to avoid this problem. I would check other things before you start to change your ink or fountain solution. If there was a chemistry issue it would happen on coated paper also.

 

[GJOHN]

On uncoated paper you have to push more water than on coated paper. You also have to carry more ink to get color because of the absorption is high on uncoated, bond stock. So perhaps you have too much ink and water on your bond stock. One idea perhaps is to use a fountain solution with drying stimulator in it. The down side is that the conductivity will be very high, but it is just a number anyway. Or you can add grapho drier to your ink which will act as a catalyst. I am wondering if you are deglazing your rollers with a Calcium rinse. As you know Calcium can cause havoc on lithography.
Alex, If I can be of further help, please get in touch.
George John
269-216-8088

 

[GazKL440]

We use hostmann impression series ink, and find that quick turn around is the key. We run jubs on bond of up to 300,000, and break it up into 2 stacks at a time, so generally a maximum of 20,000. The ink is still fairly wet to touch but does not set off in our pallet turner, and after 2 stacks will have visible image on the back cylinders but no visible picking on the sheet. Several weeks back, the shift i follow ran about 40,000 and left them for me to back up. At this point the ink felt dry, but i was cleaning back cyl's every few thousand runs, and the auto back cyl washers would not pull it off the cylinder. Not happy. Hand cleaning cylinders is not fun LOL

Another thingyou can do to prevent picking is get some silicon spray and coat the back cyl surfaces thoroughly after cleaning. the silicon wil help with the ink picking somewhat.

 

[turbotom1052]

ink drying

ink drying

not an unusual problem. id start out by making sure your using a good hard dry ink. most of the stay open inks will dry slowly and this problem becomes more prevelant. also as someone said you need to make sure fountain solution is right. be careful with how much ipa sub your using as most of them contain glycol ethers that will actually retard drying. does the press have an IR dryer and if so are you using it? more is not better when it comes to pile temp. id shoot for no more than 100 degrees f. also you might want to look at your ink film thicknesses. im noticing a trend that has alot of the inks being a bit weak these days. this requires running more ink on the rollers to match the same color. when mixing your ink try whenever you can to either mix or purchase inks a bit stronger than the formula when possible. if the ink formula calls for transparent white try to reduce or even eliminate the white if you suspect your inks of being weakly pigmented.
if after doing all these things to prevent the problem and you still find it happening heres a few things you can do to minimize it. First make sure that when you clean off the ink buildup on the impression cylinders get all traces of ink off all cylinders. treating the impression cylinders with a hand rubbed wax can help with buildup. you might want to also try a little silicone spray on the impression cylinders. Also remember that once that buildup begins to happen it becomes like a cancer. it will quickly accumulate and make this problem worsen. ive see this buildup get so bad that it actually embosses the sheet.
good luck in resolving your problem!!!

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Drying Methods of Printing Ink

Drying Methods of Printing Ink

Hello fellow Lithographers,

A PDF that should assist you in choosing the correct type of Printing Ink that unite with the substrate.


Regards, Alois

" From knowledge to competence is a great step --- from ignorance to competence an
even greater one "

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Drying Methods of Printing Ink - part 2

Drying Methods of Printing Ink - part 2

Hello fellow Lithographers, Learners and "Smudgers of Ink on Paper"


Part 2 of the PDF


Regards, Alois

 

[vaithi47]

this happens sometimes because the paper is acidic.try printing the backside without leaving the frontside anytime for drying.this is from my practical experience. also use a very quick drying ink like F100 from basf

 

[Alex Arriaza]

this happens sometimes because the paper is acidic.try printing the backside without leaving the frontside anytime for drying.this is from my practical experience. also use a very quick drying ink like F100 from basf

thanks for the reply, this is the list of inks ive been using, hostmann rapida, hostmann resista, Midwest inks, superior inks, F100, and they didn't deliver, it is a must for me to do the front side and let it dry since im doing about 350K sheets with different arts on both sides, so it is super important for us to find a ink that doesn't pick up when it dries.

 

[ink man]

Have you tried the Hostmann one step fountain solution, Substifix?