RIP software with accurate Spot color simulation strategy

[drummerpaco]

Here I am asking the question that I jumped into when I was setting up the RIP software with accureate spot colors. Here is my situation.

We have ORIS 1.2.2 RIP + Certify proof equipped with EPson 7900 + on-board spectro.
We also have Xrite 939 + iQC print for measurement and QC

I have ICC profile that I want to match and my RIP software is able to match it in terms of process color. Matching spot color is where I am having problem. I am having hard time to simulate customized spot color(s) or Pantone+ colors(s) in the Queue that I set-up which I could simulate them in my other queue (GRACoL). I know GRACoL's white reference is same as Pantone's swatch book paper and that's why I could get most of Pantone+in my GRACoL Queue. The new queue that I set up has little darker white reference (93.5 0.5 -1) which seems creating problem when I simulate the spot color since my new queue prints white reference colors.

I have tried set the queue without white reference which shifted the process color gamut to little darker than target ICC profile. I measure the gray balance, they are off in mid tones (25%-75%) which delivered little darker tones since ORIS is trying color corrections for matching ICC profile with brighter paper (I have used GRACoL certified paper from ORIS - Pearl semi-matte).

My question is, "Is there any way (or other RIP S/W) that I can print the process colors with white references and spot color without white reference?" Since I figure I can print most of Pantone+ colors in GRACoL paper, and if I just print the spot colors without white reference, I should have better chances.

Just for the reference, spot color that I am trying to match has bigger color gamut than process color even though they share same substrate in my case, transparent film.

I heard something like GMG's Open color S/W. Is anyone who used this S/W and do you think it can help my situation? or are there any other solution with ORIS S/W?


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added later

We are creating Hard proof using ORIS+Epson7900.
- not WT one and we are printing onto GRACoL Paper (pearl proof GRACoL certified)

New ICC profile that we would like to match has darker white reference than GRACoL.
- I know I have used bigger ink gamut (Paper reference) for Spot colour, however white reference affect the spot colours since substrate is darker than GRACoL.
- Spot colour that I trying to simulate is not tint or overprint spot colours, they are one solid spot colours (i.e. Pantone 165 C)
- In previous GRACoL queue + GRACoL paper, Pantone 165 C was easily produced along with Orange 021 C, but in this new queue, I have limited color gamut because of white reference.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Sorry, I am not sure if I am understanding the situation 100%...

Do you mean that you are simulating the paper tint using ink?

What are you measuring the film on with your spectro, what is the backing material?

Is this a single solid spot colour? Or a tint of a spot colour? Or a spot colour overprinting another spot or CMYK colours?

You are printing on transparent film using an Epson 7900? Or do you mean a WT7900 white ink version?


Stephen Marsh

 

[schenkadere]

Are you referring to absolute vs. relative colorimetric rendering? or that you want CMYK color managed but spot colors left at book color?

 

[drummerpaco]

We are creating Hard proof using ORIS+Epson7900.
- not WT one and we are printing onto GRACoL Paper (pearl proof GRACoL certified)

New ICC profile that we would like to match has darker white reference than GRACoL.
- I know I have used bigger ink gamut (Paper reference) for Spot colour, however white reference affect the spot colours since substrate is darker than GRACoL.
- Spot colour that I trying to simulate is not tint or overprint spot colours, they are one solid spot colours (i.e. Pantone 165 C)
- In previous GRACoL queue + GRACoL paper, Pantone 165 C was easily produced along with Orange 021 C, but in this new queue, I have limited color gamut because of white reference.

 

[schenkadere]

But this is what would naturally occur because of the stock white being darker than a GRACol white...are you trying to fake the spot colors to maintain their brightness?

 

[drummerpaco]

But this is what would naturally occur because of the stock white being darker than a GRACol white...are you trying to fake the spot colors to maintain their brightness?

That is what my intention. Since Spot colours that we produce can obtain brighter white reference when ink is mixed.
If you take a look at the Spot colour simulation in Rip software, such as ORIS & GMG (not sure of EFI), spot colour uses full printer gamut base on your paper reference profile which is bigger than process ICC profile in most case.

We have simulated that our ink company can match spot colours even though its white reference is brighter than actual substrate.

 

[MonsterBabyBLN]

i could never get the spotcolors to match with CGS.. when i use the optimization i can go for 3 or 4 prints and messure with i1.. nothin changes.. EFI does a perfect job on spotcolors..

 

[drummerpaco]

i could never get the spotcolors to match with CGS.. when i use the optimization i can go for 3 or 4 prints and messure with i1.. nothin changes.. EFI does a perfect job on spotcolors..

I am pretty sure you have your own way of matching colours with EFI rip which I have not experienced yet. But I do not believe EFI is only one who can match the spot colours. It might be your personal preference. As I pointed in my first writing, I had no problem with matching Spot colours with GRACoL queue that I have. It is just printing white reference on GRACoL paper is where I have problem with.

I got some result that new ORIS CT web 2 have added new feature that when you print White reference, it changes spot color CMYK conversion base on White references, however I need to put my hand on it to see if that can be optimized.

anyone have same problem as I do?

 

[Johu]

I am pretty sure you have your own way of matching colours with EFI rip which I have not experienced yet. But I do not believe EFI is only one who can match the spot colours. It might be your personal preference. As I pointed in my first writing, I had no problem with matching Spot colours with GRACoL queue that I have. It is just printing white reference on GRACoL paper is where I have problem with.

I got some result that new ORIS CT web 2 have added new feature that when you print White reference, it changes spot color CMYK conversion base on White references, however I need to put my hand on it to see if that can be optimized.

anyone have same problem as I do?

To my experience Oris does a great job in simulating Spot colors. BUT FORGET the preinstalled Lab librarys from Pantone. What you need is measure the target spot from A printed sample. Oris can only do as good job as the target is (of course also the printer gamut plays a part, but e7900 has a great gamut thanks to green and orange). So you measure your target and you iterate your spots to that. The best thing is to use same measurement device in case for example your external measurement device and internal one (in e7900) gives different readings for the same patch. This way you should definitely reach a good result. I have done this on a numerous occasions at a flexo customer.