Ryobi 3302H + Ryobi-Matic vs Kompac

[PatQcCa]

Hi everybody

Anyone have a 1999 Ryobi 3302H with Ryobi-Matic water system ?

My problem : Very difficult to keep density (4 colrs work) on target with large screen cover.

Don't worry i try to work logically : only 3 small ink rolls, it's a small offset press....

The press is in very good shape and i think the problem is the water system...

Maybe a new Kompac system will work better ?

Any comments ?

Thanks

Pat

 

[[email protected]]

Riceobi water system

Riceobi water system

The 3302H was Riceobi’s attempt to make a good water system but they failed. All products made in Japan are not the best as some people think. If you purchase a new 3302 today it comes with a Crestline water system. I am not sure if it is a Crestline or as always reverse engineering that the Japanese love to do. They love to copy USA made products.

I would recommend the Accel water system. The Kompac runs to wet and not as good. I service many 3302’s and 3304’s and with a Crestline they will out produce a DI hands down.
Call your local Accel dealer and get a real water system on that press.
IMHO
OG

 

[bob chance]

Is ther anything one can do to improve the h water system without buying a crestline

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Is ther anything one can do to improve the h water system without buying a crestline

Bob,

If your question is related to the original post where Pat had problems with density variation I will just make some comments.

In general, print density (SID) variation is only related to ink feed variation. Print density variation has historically been viewed incorrectly as being related to the water systems but this is only due to the fact that even modern offset presses still do not have positive control of the ink feed. So for about 100 years the effort to control density was aimed at the wrong area in the press.

Even on waterless presses, there is density variation for the very same reason. There is no water used on those presses but still density varies due to the lack of positive ink feed control.

Of course, applying water in conventional presses is very important for print quality issues but that is a different issue than the general density control issue.

Some good news is that the technology to correct the ink feed problem is simpler and costs less than the a dampening system. Positive ink feed is eventually the critical step needed for offset to be able to be consistent and predictable.

The only thing that has prevented this low cost and fundamental improvement to the process from happening is the reluctance of press manufacturers to take action. If printers really wanted to improve the process in this way, they would have put pressure on the press manufacturers to find out what is possible. There has been no secret that the technology was available for them to investigate.

I would hope that informed printers would pressure the press manufacturers in the right direction. Then maybe you would be able to get a lower cost solution that has more performance potential than just going to another dampening system.

Erik

 

[GazKL440]

running a newly installed 2nd hand 512h we had a lot of probs with water affected print (read scumming, print washing out and water lines in screens). The local support from Cyber was less than impressive, and took many irate calls from the owner before they funded new OEM roller train, and we supplied new Bottcherim dampening rollers. After installation and setting the problem was not resolved, a tech was flown in from singapore to go over the press and after much trial and error the machine was still giving an unacceptable print. The next step was fount solution and ink trials that resulted in a bottcher fount and toyo ink giving great results, with little or no alcohol required in fount on poly plates.. great screens, perfect solids with no tail off or any other probs.. the ink almost always requires reducer but that is perhaps more habit than necessity...any dampening issues are now solved by a complete fount dump and re-new, and rollers are changed yearly.

The point is that the ryobi-matic works fine when set up and maintained correctly with the right ink and chemicals to suit. They may be a reverse engineered arrangement(can anyone say 'early lexus'??)but do the the trick with perhaps a little less room for error than a german machine...

With regard to Erik's comments he is dead on, consistent density on a press in good(assuming all variables are consistent) condition requires good management of ink film, so assuming everything on the press is in good order the best answer is waste stock... settle it down with a couple of hundred run ups if required, before you turn on the counter..

 

[PatQcCa]

Feedback

Feedback

Hi everybody,

First of all, thanks for your reply. Sorry for my bad english...

After many searches over internet and a few talks with different technicians, one thing came out all the time : When the water system ; Ryobi-o-matic is 5 to 10 years old, for a reason or another sometimes it goes well and other time it won't!

I know it sounds quite simple, but i meet 5 ITEK, RYOBI 3304 and 3302 press oparator with new models or older models. Those visits was done in their shop..

The Newer model : (2-5 years old) works fine...poly ans metal plates

Older model 5-8 years old) same old story : after a roller change or gradually over the year the Ryobi-o-matic lost his shine!

New inks, new water solution, ph + conductivity checked, different solution mix, roller pressure verification fixed at millimeter...trying to run less water less ink to prevent scumming or screen blocking....

All the time Crestline system and most of the time (in my region) Kompac water system was the solution.

The results are in: After a month, my Kompac units works fine, very little waste, a bit of density variation : .03 to .05 over a run in CMYK mode. Nice screen coverage : no blocking. No scumming...

This system (Kompac) is about to change the way i was trying to print...

Thanks again,

PatQcCa

 

[[email protected]]

congrats

congrats

Glad to hear you are happy! Kompacs and Crestlines are both good choices over the stock water system

 

[GazKL440]

Kompacs are a good system they will give you no headaches and good results and i have seen some amazingly un-maintained kompacs keep workin on GTOs well beyond the point you would think they should fail..

 

[[email protected]]

Hey guys ! I just found this site & would like to piggyback a question onto this topic. We have a 3 year old 3302H/AB Dick 9995-A with Ryobi-matic dampeners.

Almost since new we have had intermittent problem with dampener system rollers suddenly speeding up in the middle of a run (problem on both heads) obviously causing quality problems.

This week, our service tech replaced the speed adjustment switch but problem did not go away. In fact, now the problem is permanent on one head instead of intermittent. The tech thinks the only remaining possible cause could be a bad circuit board for the speed controller.

However, he tells us that the board is obsolete & unavailable! Even if we could get one, he is not sure that would solve the problem. His solution is to replace the Ryobi-matic with Kompacs (his preference)or Crestlines. He claims he is aware of one other customer who had the same problem.

My questions:

1- Has anyone else experienced this issue & if so what was the solution?
2- Can anyone confirm or dispute the obsolescence of the circuit board for the speed control?
3- If we do need or decide to replace the dampener system, is Crestline or Kompac a better solution?

It seems that the decision is dependent on the experience of the particular tech. Our tech recommends Kompac because it allows more operator adjustment/flexibility. Others seem to think the Crestline is a better set it & forget solution & has less tendency to leak or rust. Another tech that services a friend's equipment says he feels that the Ryobi-matic is a great system & doesn't think the circuit board could be the problem.

I would appreciate any comments or suggestions.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Dave

Hello Dave

DaveK44,
Great question. That water system on the 3302H is the worst piece of crap Ryobi had ever put on this otherwise fine printing press. I also have seen many problems on this water system, such as surging and dripping etc. FYI if you order a new 3302 it is now called the 3302C. It comes with Crestline style dampeners. Need I say more?
Kompac’s are ok on this press but Crestline’s shine brighter. Most cases the tech is the one that makes a recommendation.
Knowing the capabilities of your machine I would strongly recommend replacing the water system and get rid of that POS that Ryobi calls a water system.
I find it hard to believe that a pc board for that model is obsolete but I have no clue what company you are dealing with. Have you tried another service company? Forget Presstek they will try and sell you a DI and enslave you to their digital consumable burning engines. If you have experienced problems since you purchased the machine that company should make allowances for the cost and loss of production and waste.
In short do yourself a favor get that water system replaced and turn that press into a work horse instead of a Pain in butt!
You will not regret it!
Regards.
OG

 

[PatQcCa]

Hi DaveK44

I had this speed problem when i was slowing down the speed of the press...sometimes not for two weeks. And the problem came back....

You could heard the sound of the water system accelerating ....grrrrrrrrrrr!!! and came back to his normal speed after 5 seconds.

A tech. talk about that electronic board to...

Kompac are great, it's true : less waste, faster start up...

And for me the first reason for my final choice between Kompac and Crestline : less rollers = less problems.

Sound quite simple but you have 1 kiss to check, make sure the seals are ok and that's all!

Good luck!

PatQcCa

 

[[email protected]]

Dear Offset Guy,

Thanks for your feedback. Yes, I am dealing with Presstek & they prefer the Kompac system.

I called a Ryobi parts depot in Nashville about the circuit board. I need to get the part number for the board, but is is possible that a replacement is available. Apparently, there are at least (2) versions of the speed controller with different circuit boards (to me that suggests an attempted fix to a problem).

I have also contacted an independent service tech (K-Press) to give us a second opinion. He seems to be a big believer in the Ryobi-matics & suspects that the speed issues are related to improper settings rather than a bad circuit board.

If we need to replace, we will discuss further with tech the Crestline vs Kompac issue. It seems to me that Crestlines are a better product, but it sdoes not make sense to ignore the guy who has to service us.

I will report our results.

Thanks again,

Dave

 

[[email protected]]

Hi Pat,

Thanks for your info also. Sounds like you had the same problem, except that now ours is permanent & we are out of production.

My concern with which system we use is about being able to produce the best quality as well as eliminating maintenance issues.

Dave

 

[Al Ferrari]

If you are serious about eliminating maintenance issues, get the Crestine. Why choose a design that uses a wearable part for two sides of its water reservoir? Kompac and Crestline are both good metering systems when properly adjusted and the seals are new.

I've had Kompacs before on other presses. Currently I have Crestlines on a 3302 for more than 10 years, and have never needed to replace the water pans.

Al

 

[[email protected]]

DaveK44

DaveK44

DaveK44,
I still stand my comments that the Ryobi water system is a total waste. Do yourself a favor, price the cost of the Ryobi water rollers. The 3 rollers used in that unit that are rubber for one unit cost $1500.00 from Ptek. Plus you have the extra baggage of electrical boards and motors when in one shot you could fix it all and still come out ahead.
I have yet to see a Ryobi water on that model be up to color in 3-4 sheets like Crestline or Kompac does. Plus the replacement costs for the rollers are lower. It is a win win thing sir.
I truly wish to say one thing to you, Your comment about listening to your service tech says a lot about you and him or her. Your loyalty to that rep is a great thing and I respect that opinion. He or she must be a great tech and I would listen to them also.
Crestline and Kompac are installed on these Ryobi's for a reason.
OG

 

[[email protected]]

Ryobi-Matic

Ryobi-Matic

OK !

We got a 2nd opinion & a few adjustments eliminated the need for either a circuit board or new dampeners. This tech has extensive experience with the Ryobi-matic & says that they are just as reliable & just as good as Crestlines or Kompacs, but adjustment is critical.

I guess it remains to be seen if the problem re-emerges, but he showed our press operator some tips for adjusting & we saved a bunch of money on new dampeners as well as a week waiting on parts.

I told Presstek that they were a little too quick to suggest that we buy new dampeners.

Thanks for all of your input.

Dave

 

[[email protected]]

great news

great news

Dave,
Great to see you are pleased with the results. There are still a few ryobi tech purists that love that water system. Why I have no clue. They will preach the techs do not know how to work on them and operator adjustments are critical etc.
But if you have ever seen the ease and quality of a Crestline on the 9995 you would know what I say.
Makes the operator job easier also no metering roll cleaner, no gum or etch on chrome rollers.
Anyway best of luck
OG

 

[graficworx]

Wanted to chip in my story of our 3985 with Crestlines. The Crestlines are far superior to the original water system, and maintain a very even film. The only issue is that the rollers only seem to last a year or two at the most, even with regular maintenance and proper pressures. They seem to swell up a bit over time, and this is with reduced fountain solution. Our old AB Dick 360's with Kompacs have never needed new rollers (I have some NIB, never taken off shelf) and work flawlessly. Even though a set of Kompacs for the Itek/Ryobi are costly, I'm thinking about it because of the cost of replacing two sets of rollers bi-annually.