scoring doesn't work

[pgr]

Usually, scoring can help prevent cracking, but this time,it cann't help, the coverstock is 157g, the color is too heavy ( overall black), folded after being scored, it still cracks, you know, scoring can do little to this grammage of paper, any input will be much appreciated!

 

[lfelton]

Have you tried a matrix crease instead? Your local print finisher will be able to do this for you on a cylinder, or if it's small format you could try chatting to any digital printers local to you. They should have automated matrix creasers as digital print will pretty often need pre-creasing. The model we have has interchangeable dies and will put a pretty good crease in down to around 100gsm.

On some jobs, you're never going to eliminate cracking completely, though a matrix crease should get you as close as you're going to get. The other option is to one side laminate the cover before scoring or creasing. On a thin stock like that, you might have to use a nylon (breathable) film to stop humidity changes causing sheet curl.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

Usually, scoring can help prevent cracking, but this time,it cann't help, the coverstock is 157g, the color is too heavy ( overall black), folded after being scored, it still cracks, you know, scoring can do little to this grammage of paper, any input will be much appreciated!

What machine are you printing this on?

 

[alan4color]

a couple of thoughts:
First make sure your folding with the grain.
Some times when we need to fold really thick cover stock, rather than use a letter press score we made a die with a slightly wider rule and deboss it on our kluges, with better results than scoring alone.
With certain stocks it is a matter of minimizing cracking rather than totally eliminating it.
With laid cover we kiss cut it rather than score it. It usually comes down to foreseeing issues and reviewing with your clients various options maybe a 1.7 mil laminate other solutions.

 

[pgr]

First, thank you for all the inputs, for better understanding, i have to say more clearly, the book is litho-printed, saddle-stitched, 4pgs(cover)+8pgs(body), paper stock: 157g C2S, the cover has overall black (that's the point), the client only needs varnish on the front cover, to prevent cracking, we advised to score at the folding edge of the cover, however, as i mention before, scoring do little to this grammage of paper, another problem we're facing is, the color on the front cover is so heavy that it could show on the reverse side of it, how to sort it out?

 

[Al Ferrari]

If you have a right angle 2nd unit on the folder, you might experiment with feeding the cover uncoated side up, wet scoring on the register table, and blade scoring from the bottom on the 1st unit exit shafts, followed by folding on the last possible plate on the 2nd unit. The wet line will soften the fibers on the uncoated side perhaps allowing the blade scoring to be more effective. Run at slow speed. It's worth a try.

Al

Edit: Also lighten up on the roller gaps so that the folded edge is not being squeezed too tightly. This applies even without the wet score.

 

[Craig]

Have you thought of trying a creasing attachment like D&R Ultimate Score or Tri-Creaser? I just ordered 2 D&R's with my new Baum 2020 today. The job I ran today in the Baum demo room with the D&R's came out without a crack.

 

[ondemandbindery]

More information about your finishing capability might help but with that being said here is my thoughts. If you are against the grain, you are in an uphill battle. I do it but if you Past that your quantity may dictate some options. If this is a recurring project it may be time to consider a technifold scoring system. If you have a saddle stitcher with a cover feeder then the technifold scoring system for a cover feeder puts a letterpress out of business!! Past that, letterpress is an alternative and the wet score may work to a point but a C2S makes it that much tougher. If the quantity is on the low side, you can always score and handfold. I can only give my solution in my shop for this but it would go right on the Muller and never look back. I also have a Dick Moll Perf and Crease with a Dual shaft system so I can put a wide and narrow score down at the same time in one pass.

Good luck,
John Weaver On Demand Bindery, Ltd.

also, is this a double hit black?

 

[Al Ferrari]

First time I hear about a wide and narrow score at the same time in one pass. Can you say a little more about that please? By dual shafts, do you mean two pairs of them? Which goes down first? What is the theory behind it? I assume they go in line one over the other? What are the blade calipers? Are these metal blades against rubber female collars, or are they Tri-Creasers?

Thanks,

Al

 

[ondemandbindery]

The dual shaft systems are pretty slick. The system uses 2 shafts in continuation and yes I am using a Technifold system. Rollems have this same system also as I am sure others do. The Technifold system on the cover feeder of my Muller is the same theory in that it has 2 female scoring wheels and like I posted earlier these products eliminate the need for letterpress time. The other advantage to having dual shafts is you can get excellent sheet control meaning excellent registration and little to no tailing off of scores and perfs. The technifold products ain't cheap but my opinion on that is they work and when you call them Gina (rep for me) she will absolutely help me in any way she can and if you call brand B you won't get that. I got lucky when I located my perf and crease as my Dick Moll Salesman said it cost about 30k new and I paid somewhere around 7k for it. I have made a 40" continious score on it and it held laser straight registration so these machines really are very capable.

 

[Craig]

Technifolds are good, but with the samples I provided to them and D&R, the D&R Ultimate Score beat them hands down, and at half the price!

 

[Al Ferrari]

Technifolds are good, but with the samples I provided to them and D&R, the D&R Ultimate Score beat them hands down, and at half the price!

I suspect that's due to the speed difference at which the two methods work. Technifolds work at folder shaft speeds while the D&R Ultimate Score works at press cylinder speeds.

Although if the Technifolds were on a saddle binder cover feeder which run perhaps slower than a press, the results might be different.

Al

 

[Craig]

The D&R are also attachments for the slitter shaft, the same as the Technifolds. We are getting a set of D&R's with our new Baum 2020, the install will be next week.

 

[Al Ferrari]

Well color me ignorant. It seems I know nothing about D&R creasing equipment or attachments. I just tried a Google search for "D&R", "D&R creasing", "D&R scoring", and plain "D&R", going up to six Google pages with no link to a relevant D&R site. Searching for "D&R Ultimate Score" leads back to the two recent posts by Craig in these forums.

Can someone please post a link, so that I can catch up?

Thanks,

Al

 

[ondemandbindery]

Never heard of a D&R scoring system. Sounds great that you can get better quality at half the price. I think I will take my chances with the Technifold system. My customers love it and my competitors hate it!! But back to this thread, I think it shows that there are options out there. Substrate, grain, coverage, and realistic expections are all a part of the equation on a job like this. If for whatever reason you are unable to resolve your issue, find a friend at a shop that has some of these methods and ask them to do a test for you. And even though I hate to see things get put on a letterpress that could possibly get processed in a more efficient manner, there are some instances where a letterpress just outshines anything else.

Good luck

 

[Craig]

Well color me ignorant. It seems I know nothing about D&R creasing equipment or attachments. I just tried a Google search for "D&R", "D&R creasing", "D&R scoring", and plain "D&R", going up to six Google pages with no link to a relevant D&R site. Searching for "D&R Ultimate Score" leads back to the two recent posts by Craig in these forums.

Can someone please post a link, so that I can catch up?

Thanks,

Al

Here ya go.

 

[amgd1972]

Look ion Sappi's web site they have some interesting resources there re cracking.

One suggestion is to crease across the grain??

Tech Ni Fold also do a creasing collar for the folding lines..... costs around €500.... worth investigating.

 

[D Ink Man]

Change your paper stock.

Ink has no influence on the cracking, actually can help the situation as it is plasticized.

D

 

[davidspiel]

You need to be creasing-- not scoring. Welcome to the twenty first century:


Davids Spiel
877-BINDERY