G
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Great +Public Service Announcement+ from Adobe [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPmsXTMVxps]
michaelejahn
Well-known member
Re: Stop Stupid PDF Syndrome Now
yes indeed !
Back in 1998, while I was Director of a prepress division for a gravure and heatset offset print service provider, I was ask to join what was then called the "PDF Group" - a group of people who worked for the top 10 printers in the industry at that time - forget all that was represented, many of them are now owned by Quebecor or RRD -- anyway..
with all out hand wringing and teeth knashing at these meetings with Adobes John Felleman, Dianne Eckloff & Gary Cosimini" -- I remember all the test files we gave them using with Acrobat 2.1 and Acrobat 3, and how we wanted all screamed for Crackerjack (imposition) then from Lantana now owned by ARTS - boy, we were so very right on some of the issues, and so very wrong on others - but now that we fought and won many of the things we needed in Adobe Tech Note 5188 - well, everyone gets it, everyone mostly can process this --- and it is time to take the next step !
We need to move on from this "PDF/X flattened device dependent" exchange - the industry is doing more and more digital printing, and CMKY PDFs are not the way to go...
I guess my point is that flattening transparency crushes important content - for example, if someone designed an advert - and that advert had a transparency effect applied to type - and that type overlapped an image - my thought here is NOT for flattened it before you send it to the magazine - so that magazine can then import the PDF into its document while retaining the non flattened text - you know, so it can still be searchable, made 508 compliant - rich PDF.
Of course, the magazine may indeed to a conversion to that PDF before they send it to the printing system or to the print service provider.
This is true of catalogers - PDF/X1a:2003 is how many catalogers send their PDF files to their printer (with a SWOP 3 output Intent)
But, having siad that - many of us in the CMS (not color management systems, the other CMS, Content Management System) vertical have been smelling something stinky in the publisher vertical - and like a dead fish, the head stinks the worst. The very people who have been charged with creating content are the same people demanding some of that content to be crushed. Let me go on record here - I personally hate that document creators like newspapers and magazines insist that people convert their Adverts into "stupid" PDF files, and while I grasp why we are here at this time and place (due to mistrust of reliable conversion of transparency settings and "other things", we need to move forward and stop this practice.
This is the opposite of what 508 compliance spirit is - where we exchange PDF files that are in a condition that 'enable' people to translate a PDF so the user can 'read it' if they are disabled (deaf or blind) - in addition, smarter minds would of course want to preserve text as text if we wanted the content to be translated into a local language.
That magazines insist on PDF/X-1a is also opposite of what all magazines are really about - enabling a wider audience to access the content they worked so hard to compile.
When I worked for AGFA, I spent a great deal of time passionately pleading to publishers and commercial printers that we all upgrade our prepress systems to enable PDF files to be processed. This required we 'prove' that PDF files could be created in a way that they could trust. My main mission in life was to replace the practice of exchanging TIFF/IT and CT/LW files.
This change in the industry demanded a fundamental shift in the way we created these file (so they could be exchanged reliably) - but with a focus on making these PDF file reliable for PRINT.
That was a big step, but now, it is time to make the next one.
While it remains to be seen exactly how well Adobe has done to overcome the reason why the industry created this "SPDFS" - the new Adobe PDF Print Engine 2 may be the start to recovery - at worst - this is a step in the right direction. Like most change, it will take a while.
I love to quote Schopenhauer here (although, many attribute versions of this to Gandhi)
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Smart and Rich PDF are not "Flattened"
yes indeed !
Back in 1998, while I was Director of a prepress division for a gravure and heatset offset print service provider, I was ask to join what was then called the "PDF Group" - a group of people who worked for the top 10 printers in the industry at that time - forget all that was represented, many of them are now owned by Quebecor or RRD -- anyway..
with all out hand wringing and teeth knashing at these meetings with Adobes John Felleman, Dianne Eckloff & Gary Cosimini" -- I remember all the test files we gave them using with Acrobat 2.1 and Acrobat 3, and how we wanted all screamed for Crackerjack (imposition) then from Lantana now owned by ARTS - boy, we were so very right on some of the issues, and so very wrong on others - but now that we fought and won many of the things we needed in Adobe Tech Note 5188 - well, everyone gets it, everyone mostly can process this --- and it is time to take the next step !
We need to move on from this "PDF/X flattened device dependent" exchange - the industry is doing more and more digital printing, and CMKY PDFs are not the way to go...
I guess my point is that flattening transparency crushes important content - for example, if someone designed an advert - and that advert had a transparency effect applied to type - and that type overlapped an image - my thought here is NOT for flattened it before you send it to the magazine - so that magazine can then import the PDF into its document while retaining the non flattened text - you know, so it can still be searchable, made 508 compliant - rich PDF.
Of course, the magazine may indeed to a conversion to that PDF before they send it to the printing system or to the print service provider.
This is true of catalogers - PDF/X1a:2003 is how many catalogers send their PDF files to their printer (with a SWOP 3 output Intent)
But, having siad that - many of us in the CMS (not color management systems, the other CMS, Content Management System) vertical have been smelling something stinky in the publisher vertical - and like a dead fish, the head stinks the worst. The very people who have been charged with creating content are the same people demanding some of that content to be crushed. Let me go on record here - I personally hate that document creators like newspapers and magazines insist that people convert their Adverts into "stupid" PDF files, and while I grasp why we are here at this time and place (due to mistrust of reliable conversion of transparency settings and "other things", we need to move forward and stop this practice.
This is the opposite of what 508 compliance spirit is - where we exchange PDF files that are in a condition that 'enable' people to translate a PDF so the user can 'read it' if they are disabled (deaf or blind) - in addition, smarter minds would of course want to preserve text as text if we wanted the content to be translated into a local language.
That magazines insist on PDF/X-1a is also opposite of what all magazines are really about - enabling a wider audience to access the content they worked so hard to compile.
When I worked for AGFA, I spent a great deal of time passionately pleading to publishers and commercial printers that we all upgrade our prepress systems to enable PDF files to be processed. This required we 'prove' that PDF files could be created in a way that they could trust. My main mission in life was to replace the practice of exchanging TIFF/IT and CT/LW files.
This change in the industry demanded a fundamental shift in the way we created these file (so they could be exchanged reliably) - but with a focus on making these PDF file reliable for PRINT.
That was a big step, but now, it is time to make the next one.
While it remains to be seen exactly how well Adobe has done to overcome the reason why the industry created this "SPDFS" - the new Adobe PDF Print Engine 2 may be the start to recovery - at worst - this is a step in the right direction. Like most change, it will take a while.
I love to quote Schopenhauer here (although, many attribute versions of this to Gandhi)
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Smart and Rich PDF are not "Flattened"
Re: Stop Stupid PDF Syndrome Now
Hey, Hey, it's Bubba Ray.
I thought I would just ride off into the sunset as an unknown Prepress Manager for a medium size web printer in Nashville and never respond to one of these forums again in my life. Then who walks into my computer screen...Michael Jahn...someone I truly admire for his vision and outspokeness.
However, wrestling with a variety of PDF files from a variety of vendors to produce a vaiety of printed projects...I sometimes think I have too much VARIETY in my life. I used to say, I never met a Postscript file I didn't like, just some it took longer for me to get to know than I would have liked (still writing too long run-on sentences). The same is true for PDF files...THANK GOD for tools like Pit Stop...it's my crowbar and hammer to get things on press.
I like Smart PDF's...I just don't like the budget and time restraints I have to make them work EVERY time. And I still don't like the post production meetings when something didn't go as the customer expected.
I was hoping by this point in my career that the files would be smarter and I would be dumber...unfortnately, it's me that has to be smarter to con the files into printing.
Michael, I love ya man...it's good to see ya still charging onward.
Ray "Bubba" Flatt
Hey, Hey, it's Bubba Ray.
I thought I would just ride off into the sunset as an unknown Prepress Manager for a medium size web printer in Nashville and never respond to one of these forums again in my life. Then who walks into my computer screen...Michael Jahn...someone I truly admire for his vision and outspokeness.
However, wrestling with a variety of PDF files from a variety of vendors to produce a vaiety of printed projects...I sometimes think I have too much VARIETY in my life. I used to say, I never met a Postscript file I didn't like, just some it took longer for me to get to know than I would have liked (still writing too long run-on sentences). The same is true for PDF files...THANK GOD for tools like Pit Stop...it's my crowbar and hammer to get things on press.
I like Smart PDF's...I just don't like the budget and time restraints I have to make them work EVERY time. And I still don't like the post production meetings when something didn't go as the customer expected.
I was hoping by this point in my career that the files would be smarter and I would be dumber...unfortnately, it's me that has to be smarter to con the files into printing.
Michael, I love ya man...it's good to see ya still charging onward.
Ray "Bubba" Flatt
Re: Stop Stupid PDF Syndrome Now
Hi all,
PDF basically exchange of digital data in final page form. Though the significant problem here with data exchange (between originator (designer) and recipient (printer/prepress) is error in the file, which either impair or make further processing impossible. nevertheless PDF widely known for its benifits, but we still need to consider a few critical factor which influnce the usability among originator..these so called graphic designer.
1st of all need to look at the technological change..is there a gap between design house & prepress ? in term of software &hardware?..simply speaking..are design house moving upward with the technology?...are printer (prepress) moving upward?..are they equipped with the latest RIP to handle the files?
another thing; the user preference ...the sense of design to print.. 1 interesting question to ask newbie and future designers out there..., aesthetic vs. purposing.. which 1 come 1st?... To designer, to produce work that transcends something as mundane as purpose determined by some1 else, using a process that aims at uniqueness and risk failure? or is designer to work using 'horse sense', with novelty lower on their list, satisfying them self with reliably successful execution of each task?..
Last but not least.. the organization factor..Does designers has effective organizational communication to printer?..do they understand what printer really want?..technically speaking...the used of standardize final file format will significantly depends on the print conditions..whereas from a simple publication to packaging printing...when exchanging final files will solely depends on reliability vs flexibility factor.
As for me..no matter what file designers sending me...as long as i have total control over it..
Stop Stupid PDF Syndrome Now!!!
_^The process of adapting industry standardize final files format among future designers^_
Edited by: Verve on Jun 18, 2008 9:07 AM
Edited by: Verve on Jun 18, 2008 9:08 AM
Hi all,
PDF basically exchange of digital data in final page form. Though the significant problem here with data exchange (between originator (designer) and recipient (printer/prepress) is error in the file, which either impair or make further processing impossible. nevertheless PDF widely known for its benifits, but we still need to consider a few critical factor which influnce the usability among originator..these so called graphic designer.
1st of all need to look at the technological change..is there a gap between design house & prepress ? in term of software &hardware?..simply speaking..are design house moving upward with the technology?...are printer (prepress) moving upward?..are they equipped with the latest RIP to handle the files?
another thing; the user preference ...the sense of design to print.. 1 interesting question to ask newbie and future designers out there..., aesthetic vs. purposing.. which 1 come 1st?... To designer, to produce work that transcends something as mundane as purpose determined by some1 else, using a process that aims at uniqueness and risk failure? or is designer to work using 'horse sense', with novelty lower on their list, satisfying them self with reliably successful execution of each task?..
Last but not least.. the organization factor..Does designers has effective organizational communication to printer?..do they understand what printer really want?..technically speaking...the used of standardize final file format will significantly depends on the print conditions..whereas from a simple publication to packaging printing...when exchanging final files will solely depends on reliability vs flexibility factor.
As for me..no matter what file designers sending me...as long as i have total control over it..
Stop Stupid PDF Syndrome Now!!!
_^The process of adapting industry standardize final files format among future designers^_
Edited by: Verve on Jun 18, 2008 9:07 AM
Edited by: Verve on Jun 18, 2008 9:08 AM
michaelejahn
Well-known member
Re: Stop Stupid PDF Syndrome Now
yes, I do recall being one of the many people exclaiming that PDF would solve many of the problems that were being faced by the publishing industry back in 1996.
and, indeed PDF did that exactly !
"Why PDF"
- Before PDF - in 1989 - I was director of a prepress facility and spoke at events like Lasers in Graphics, Seybold and GAA (Gravura Association of America) about the plight - we were exchanging film, even when we all had digital systems that created film - but nearing 1991, when people did excahnge digital data files - the industry was exchanging device, platform and system dependent files (Scitex CT/LW, DeltaList, etc..) on 9 track magnetic reel tapes.
After PDF - in 1996 - where the internet was not ready, and peer to peer high speed file transfers over SMDS and (the horror) WAM!NET were insanely
expensive...it was impractical to exchange these "standard" TIFF/IT-P1 files with each other, as a typical single page was 38 MBs.
Specifically - Acrobat Distiller (version 2.1) let us 'touch the knobs' (setdistillerparams and PDFMARK) - and we could FINALLY reliably exchange a CMYK PDF.
So, yes, PDF solved the problem of RELIABLE FILE EXCHANGE, mainly because PDF/X solved the problem by strickly defining 'what a reliable file exchange' actually is.
But, now, that is old, and it is time to solve NEW problems.
yes, I do recall being one of the many people exclaiming that PDF would solve many of the problems that were being faced by the publishing industry back in 1996.
and, indeed PDF did that exactly !
"Why PDF"
- Before PDF - in 1989 - I was director of a prepress facility and spoke at events like Lasers in Graphics, Seybold and GAA (Gravura Association of America) about the plight - we were exchanging film, even when we all had digital systems that created film - but nearing 1991, when people did excahnge digital data files - the industry was exchanging device, platform and system dependent files (Scitex CT/LW, DeltaList, etc..) on 9 track magnetic reel tapes.
After PDF - in 1996 - where the internet was not ready, and peer to peer high speed file transfers over SMDS and (the horror) WAM!NET were insanely
expensive...it was impractical to exchange these "standard" TIFF/IT-P1 files with each other, as a typical single page was 38 MBs.
Specifically - Acrobat Distiller (version 2.1) let us 'touch the knobs' (setdistillerparams and PDFMARK) - and we could FINALLY reliably exchange a CMYK PDF.
So, yes, PDF solved the problem of RELIABLE FILE EXCHANGE, mainly because PDF/X solved the problem by strickly defining 'what a reliable file exchange' actually is.
But, now, that is old, and it is time to solve NEW problems.
Re: Stop Stupid PDF Syndrome Now
Yea I know (I been around a while to).
You still have dimwit customers supply you crap for files, I suppose if it were printers suppling files to printers It would be a utopia. Unfortunately I don't see much of a difference between now and back then. Until content creators are finally TAUGHT its S.O.S.
Sorry need caffine getting grumpy
Yea I know (I been around a while to).
You still have dimwit customers supply you crap for files, I suppose if it were printers suppling files to printers It would be a utopia. Unfortunately I don't see much of a difference between now and back then. Until content creators are finally TAUGHT its S.O.S.
Sorry need caffine getting grumpy
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