To buy or not to buy?

[Billabongchick]

Hi all, I have just discovered this forum when I was trying to research a machine I have been offered. What a wealth of information and advice; good stuff!

I am a new start-up (have worked at a bolt-on franchise of one of the leading UK High Street print companies for 7 years prior) and have good basic knowledge of digital and litho set-up and digital output from start to finish. As with all new businesses I am slowly building up a new client base and the work is trickling in. I outsource all my litho and am very happy with my set-up/pricing for that.

I currently use a local digital printer for my short run jobs like wedding invites etc. He is great at reliability and quality and pricing is not bad but by the time I have added on my time/costs to collect etc for what are invariably small jobs it is pricing me out and also I am at his mercy waiting for quotes for my customers rather than being able to quote within minutes and knowing what card stocks I can offer.

What I am getting around to is that I have been offered a second hand Xerox DC250. It is owned outright and has been upkept well. Comes from a local shop that the guy shut down from health issues but it had a great reputation locally. The machine is owned outright and off contract and I have a good engineer who can service it for me. Click count is 1.2million approx and the machine is 4-5yrs old. It comes with 4 new drums and a fuser and what is left in the toners. Has Bypass tray but no finisher (not too bothered about a finisher at this point as will mainly be using it for short run leaflets, invites and business cards).

What in your esteeemed opinions would a machine like this be worth on this basis, how would you rate the DC250 in general (have read through all the posts on here and the main negatives seem to be card curling and bad gradients and colour consistency) and as a new business hardly making any money is it worth me buying this as a start-up machine? Would love your help please! Have always found Xerox to be great generally but second opinions would be really helpful and what you think a fair price is.

Thank you in advance!

 

[Craig]

Well my opinion is that if you can afford it and it is in good condition then go for it. At least you can unload it if you find out its not what you need in the future.

 

[Billabongchick]

Yes there is that I suppose; any ideas on what it might be worth? I think he is offering me a pretty competitive price but I have literally no idea what these things may be worth! Am sure the price would be fairly comparable from US to UK. Thanks!

 

[lfelton]

If the 4 new drums and a fuser are completely unused and boxed, then I suspect that they will be worth more than the actual printer itself. If you offered £500 for the lot, the vendor would probably bite your hand off.

The trick is going to be keeping it running with reasonably accurate colour at a price that you can afford. The spares are expensive, so I'd do some serious homework before parting with your hard earned.

I expect that you already have, but also factor in a guillotine into your calculations and at a bare minimum a hand operated creaser.

I'd also look at whether any of the trade digital services in the UK are a better option for you than your local digital printer. Most operate a white label delivery service, so you can have everything delivered directly to your customer. Certainly look at that type of service as a way of offering additional products that you can't currently manufacture.

I hope that helps!

 

[Billabongchick]

Wow, ok that is a lot less than they are offering it for! They reckoned the spares were worth £500 approx and offering the whole bundle for £3000. So on that basis it is way overpriced? I understand the spares are expensive but I don't want to be tied to a contract as at least if I don't have the volume of work in initially then I don't lose anything. I just want to be a bit more in control of jobs; waiting for quotes or samples of textured card for fiddly jobs makes it hard to be competitive and I can't check the job before it goes out. I have been using my litho guys for about 3 years so feel more comfortable with not seeing things that go straight out to my customers from them white label as I am familiar with their quality and how stuff on my screen relates to the final print! Arghhh, bit confused now!

 

[easiprint]

. If you offered £500 for the lot, the vendor would probably bite your hand off.

Really???!!!??? If I could buy a DC250 for £500 I would bite the sellers hand off. I have a DC250 which I bought a couple of years ago from a dealer for £7000. I love the machine and I am currently looking for a second, but even on ebay they are currently at £4000+ for a good DC250. DC12's are going for a few hundred, but they are of course a different class of machine. £3000 seems a good price if it is in good condition. Running costs are what you will need to watch. And of course you will also need a guillotine as a bare minimum.

 

[Billabongchick]

Right-o. Thank you all for the feedback... having looked online I have seen one offered at around £7000 inc full service plan, another place leasing from £100 per month basic service with no consumables... and one on eBay for Buy it Now of £5200 (or at auction) with only 35,000 clicks and no service/consumables. So I think it is worth going to have a look at my one; he says he'll link my Mac up so I can try printing some samples from that of stuff I've had printed already on newer machines for comparison of quality as it stands.

Had thought about the guillotine issue... anyone selling one?!

 

[lfelton]

Really???!!!??? If I could buy a DC250 for £500 I would bite the sellers hand off. I have a DC250 which I bought a couple of years ago from a dealer for £7000. I love the machine and I am currently looking for a second, but even on ebay they are currently at £4000+ for a good DC250. DC12's are going for a few hundred, but they are of course a different class of machine. £3000 seems a good price if it is in good condition. Running costs are what you will need to watch. And of course you will also need a guillotine as a bare minimum.

Yes, really. 2-3 years ago I advertised (for about 6 weeks, including on HERE) a 250 that was 18 months old with hicap feeder, spectro to calibrate it, professional finisher, etc. in perfect "as new" condition (always on Xerox maint) and had zero interest. Basically, it was our "toe in the water" machine (we were previously just litho), we'd loved it to bits but just outgrown it. A dealer offered me £1500 and so I advertised it as offers over £1500. Absolutely zero interest. It went directly from our premises to a new owner and I understand they paid the dealer about £6 or £7K for it (WITHOUT the spectro). So, from my experience, used 250s without dealer backup are next to worthless and the parts are probably worth more. Bear in mind that was still a "current generation" machine when I was selling it.

That's digital kit for you, there's zero residual value to the printer. Check out leasing rates for verification, no residual value is built in on any of the lease proposals I've seen to date.

TBH litho presses in the UK are almost as bad, but at least there's a pretty strong export market. We sold one of our older 4-colours last year and for the first couple of months just had a couple of time wasting t**sers from the UK mess us around. The dealer then advertised it in Eastern Europe and we had 2 firm offers in 48 hours and it was gone from our factory in a week.

 

[Billabongchick]

Hmmm, that is interesting; thank you all. Actually I went to see the machine at the weekend and was quite impressed with the colour/print quality even on gradients and tried various different stocks including Conq 350gsm Laid Card which it took through no probs so I think it will do the job for me nicely. I always liked the DC12 at the old place I worked compared to the awful Oce they replaced it with which never went more than 2 sheets without jamming on anything more than the most basic paper runs so I'd be happier sticking with Xerox anyway.

Obviously my contact as an ex engineer has calibrated and serviced it all so it is up to spec and running at optimum quality but it seems calibration is fairly straightforward. Also I got the price down a bit, delivery, months warranty and he will install it all and iron out any teething/bedding in probs so all in all I am, fingers crossed, happy that I have value for money. I would rather spend my money on something I know the full history of rather than something off eBay with no support etc. I know with the budget I have available that I have a decent machine that will do the basic jobs I need it to such as short run invites, basic business cards and leaflets and I don't have the daunting issue of being tied into a contract which will give me flexibility until my business is more established. My posh stuff always goes litho anyway so this is a second option for those clients on less budget who are not going to pick holes in every small colour difference. Anyway, hopefully it will all go well as it arrives within the next week!

I will still be looking for a guillotine so if anybody knows of one for sale or is upgrading soon then please give me a shout! Thanks again all who gave advice!

 

[printchesco]

Just read this post and I find it quite inspiring. I agree that you should rather spend money on something you are aware about the full history of. These days, you are lucky if you get value for brand new items, much less for second hand stuff.