Where's the catch

[Stressed]

Can someone help me? I currently have several Xerox production presses and hate them all. They break down almost every single day. We do roughly 100k -200k a month on only xerox digital stocks (140gsm - 350gsm) All our runs are short run 1000 sheets max. Currently our sheets curl, soaked with oil, streaks and colour variation from edge to edge, bugger to laminate and look and feel like a budget photocopy. Xerox reps are never seen and don't give a damn.

I had a demo on the new KM 6501e with Creo and it blew me away with quality and speed. It alsmost seems to good to be true.

Cannon, indigo, kodak etc all have their problems as far as i can see and I've ruled them out. Xerox 700 seems good but it still has the Xerox badge which puts me off.

PS - anyone want to buy a xerox press from me - no reasonable offer refused!

Thanks

Stressed.

 

[Craig]

What are your production presses? Are they true "production" or did the salesman refer to them as such? I had a "Production" CLC4000 that was an absolute joke.

If you have a production press more than likely it will have a de-curler, and you need to change the settings to solve your curling issue. To make things more difficult it will be a different setting for different paper. I have yet to see a sheet from any production press/copier "soaked" with oil. That is either a great exaggeration or you have mechanical issues. As for color variation, when was the last time you had a PM and how often do you calibrate? Did you get a CED with the boxes? If so what is the delta E color variation specified at vs what you are getting?

If your volumes are 100 to 200K per month then you will kill a single KM6501e before your lease is up (refer to the post regarding the KM6500 Duty Cycle), you better get a few of them.

Every manufacture has problems, these are not Heidelberg's or Komori's and will have service more often. From what I have read on another forum (copytechnet.com) KM is having problems with drum blades flipping on the 6500's right now, not to mention other issues. Again EVERY manufacture has problems, Xerox, Canon, Kodak, Xeikon, HP, Konica Minolta, Sharp, Ricoh... all you need to do is open the box up and look at all the crap inside, it's no wonder they work as well as they do. That's why folks like Random make the big bucks, to keep people like us running!

 

[random]

Yeah, what machines do you have at the moment? 350gsm tells me you are running well out of spec and I would suspect this a catalyst for most of your problems. Unless you go for the 700 you will never get rid of your lamination problems even then this is a bit touch and go if the toner is the same as 252.

Sounds like you may be in the situation where the machine is only as good as the service provider.

 

[leetaylor]

I run a Xerox 5000 and must say I am impressed with the quality it produces - okay, yes it uses fuser oil but I have never seen a sheet "soaked with oil". Colour variation across the sheet is also something I just don't get (even on 300gsm). I come from a pre-press background so I am not easily impressed!

I would be interested to hear what Xerox "Production" presses you are running................?

Lee.

 

[Craig]

Ditto with leetaylor, my 8000AP runs with fuser oil and even though Random's avatar may show the 8000AP as a tanker, I have never seen a sheet "soaked" in oil. (Random is just jealous, cause an 8000AP will run a 6500 in the ground any day of the week)

 

[random]

C6500 is not in the same market as an 8000, so yes an 8000 would run a C6500 into the ground. However next year we will have a 80 pager and this will decimate what scraps are left of xerox. Have a nice day.

 

[leetaylor]

C6500 is not in the same market as an 8000, so yes an 8000 would run a C6500 into the ground. However next year we will have a 80 pager and this will decimate what scraps are left of xerox. Have a nice day.

Yeah right!

But how about the service engineers - not so many of those have you!

We get a 2-4 hour response from Xerox - how do you compare?

 

[Stressed]

Thanks Guys

Thanks Guys

Thanks guys for your comments. We have an old 2045 and 2 x 5252. The 2045 is by far the better. My printers are all trained by xerox at great expense with 10+ years experience working with digital print and know their stuff.

We have a 5252 down for 4 days and over the three machines we have 14 (fourteen) call outs in one month. Each call out has required new parts. We are in a controlled climate and our paper is only Xerox. The engineers have approved the xerox 350gsm as usable. We calibrate every day if not more.

One 5252 was worked on by three engineers at once for 3 days replacing an entire fusing unit only to print 15 sheets of 160gsm before a 'drum module' had to be replaced. This was replaced to then need some other parts. By this stage I was about to jump off the nearest bridge.

The sheets soaked in oil is no exazgeration. Some sheets you can write your name with your finger in the coating of oil. As yet the engineers cannot fix this on either of the 5252's

As I said before the engineers we have are superb and will do whatever it takes. I am simply looking for advice on an alternative to xerox for reliability (if there is an alternative)

Let me know your experiences if you have been using an alternative to Xerox.

Thanks.

 

[Craig]

Sounds like they are at the point of needing replaced. Keep in mind (and this applies to every manufacture) there have been vast improvements in the last 5 years on the production presses. The 5252 is not even sold as new by Xerox any longer. If your volume is 100 to 200K (I'll assume 8.5x11) per month each 5252 is only rated at 60-80K per month, you may have just worked them to death! With a new press you will also find lower click charges, I can only imagine what you are paying to keep those running. If I were you I would look at a Xerox 8000AP, Canon 7000VP, depending on what substrates you run even a few KM6500's or a Ricoh 900C.

 

[Stressed]

Thanks

Thanks

Thanks Craig.

Both machine are almost at the end of their contract and due to be replaced very soon. The 2045 is acient but a great workhorse. Thats why I'm shopping around. The KM looks a good machine but maybe more of an office machine. I'm reluctant to go with Xerox again as we've had a nitemare time lately.

Will look at the machines you've suggested.

Thanks again.

 

[Whygen]

We have just done 200k A3 clicks this month on one KM6501e - to be honest we did "spank" it but we never had any streaking problems and although the quality did drop slightly towards the 150-200k mark - after some routine maintenance it was "tip top" again - we have a 2nd machine on order as we are hoping to do this volume on a regular basis.....considering that 2 x KM cost prob between 100 - 120k - its not a bad deal....

 

[smiller]

C6500 is not in the same market as an 8000, so yes an 8000 would run a C6500 into the ground. However next year we will have a 80 pager and this will decimate what scraps are left of xerox. Have a nice day.

Sounds like it may be that "Renoir" product in the that slide on Copytechnet.com:

Can't beleave someone posted this on a website but for those who want to know the differences between a c6500 and a c6501 from a marketing perspective here it is Copytechnet.com: Copytechnet.com

 

[Stressed]

Cheers Whygen

Cheers Whygen

Thanks Whygen. Orderd km machine today.

 

[Craig]

May the force be with you, but I feel you will be even more "Stressed" in the future. The 6501 will not be able to run your 100-200K month in and month out without much service intervention to keep it alive. I hope you are getting multiple machines!

 

[Stressed]

Trial

Trial

Hi Craig - we're getting am KM on a trial period with the view to transferring 40-50k per month initially. if all goes well we will look at multiple machine as our Xerox contracts drop out.

Thanks for your comments

Stressed

 

[random]

Congratulations stressed!

You are fortunate enough to break free from the grasp of Xerox and be part of the future!

It's so nice to see you have taken on the open and honest comments of c6500 owners not the rhetoric of the uneducated.

We have just taken over another xerox client who had a 5252 and they are beside themselves with glee due to the quality, performance and reliability of there c6500 and your getting the flasher 6501 so good for you.

 

[Craig]

You are fortunate enough to break free from the grasp of Xerox and be part of the future!

OMG, are you sure you a tech. and not in sales/marketing?

they are beside themselves with glee due to the quality, performance and reliability of there c6500 and your getting the flasher 6501 so good for you.

For now, or as long as they have a competent technician working for them... I mean on the 6500.

 

[JaimeZ]

What a great discussion. As a traditional ink on paper printer from a long line of printers--my grandfather, father and myself--I'm looking into getting one of the many digital machines out there and this discussion is very helpful. I'm tending to lean towards the KM machines, however, another printer friend with a similar pedigree to me just installed a Cannon 7000 and is very pleased with the machine.

Frankly, I thought I would never get a toner based machine until we installed a Xante Ilumina last year to address the small runs we were not getting and quickly realized that the future of our industry is heading towards toner based devices--at least the 14x20 and under part.

Do any of you also have just B&W machines for the black ink jobs? And what are your preferences?

 

[Craig]

JaimeZ,
Just remember, you get what you pay for.

Our B/W box is a Ricoh MP9000 it is just about to turn 2 years old in December and has just over 9,000,000 on it. I have very little complaints regarding this box, other than the plastic duplex tray will need to be changed every 2 to 3 million because of ware.

 

[random]

If you have been reading the forum you probably know that I don't own any machine.

I do however have lots of customers that do and most of them like you are traditional printers who have caught onto the fact that times are a changing. Digital is out of it's infancy and you need to up skill the team and look at digital.

If you had a b&w production machine you would need it for a very specific purpose I think. For example you did a lot of training manuals.

Most of our traditional printing companies have opted for a color only, the odd one that has a b&w machine already had the work there for it and justified the need.

There are two angles to this really the traditional printer like your self, moving not sure if it’s down to digital or across to digital and the copy shop owner who has always had digital. The copy shop owner will always have a b&w machine. It’s been the bread and butter for years and it will always have a home. It would however take a brave offset owner to invest in a b&w machine if they didn’t already have a use for it.

If you are b&w inclined I have seen prints off the Xerox production stuff. I think off a 4112 of something and it was very good. If any one says Nuvera to you run away if they say Nuvera 288 run away twice as fast. We have a b&w machine called the 1050 but it is pretty long in the tooth now, ultra reliable but dated we should have a new engine in the new year. The Ricoh is ok just don’t get the square edge finisher. As for Canon, not sure if the techs are just crap in our area but those ir7105’s just never seem to run right.