Where's the catch

[Craig]

But Random here is the flaw in your thinking of a color only machine. My click charge for B/W on my Xerox 8000AP is $0.0129, on my Ricoh MP9000 it is $0.003. Again with my volume of 400,000 a month B/W that saves me $3,960.00 in maintenance charges alone!!!!!

As for the Nuvera, I have heard the first ones were an absolute tank, but the new ones are much improved. As for Ricoh, the square edge finisher or the GBC Stream Punch (ours has 4,000,000 punches) are a weak link. The Ricoh box is very solid.

 

[random]

Yes Craig, as I pointed out you are probably not from an offset heritage? You will have volume to require a Ricoh. I don't think there would be many offset people who could say I need to run 4,000,000 letter size this year who doesn't already have a high speed mono. Those of mine who do have mono pretty much use it to print over shells and VDP.

BTW your getting screwed with the black clicks on your 8000.

Have a good weekend.

 

[JaimeZ]

random and Craig,

Yes, the reason I would get a separate B&W machine is the click charge difference for B&W work.

I still do a lot of NCR and 20# bond forms. Not to mention the B&W postcard type work on your index, vellum and astrobright stocks. I also would go after manual work with such a machine.

So if I were to transition some of the work I have it seems it would be wiser to have both B&W and color machines.

In a sense, I would be replacing my single color ABDick 360 (yes the Sherman tank of the quick print industry for over 3 decades) with the monochrome digital printer. I would keep my ABDick 8820 with a T-head for the longer run B&W as well as the one and two color spot color jobs.

At least that's the way I see it--can you educate me as to the flaw in my thinking?

 

[Craig]

JaimeZ,
I wouldn't expect Random to know my background or my shop. I have an ABDick 9870 with a T-Head as well as a Multi 1250 with a bottom feeder we use for envelopes, a letterpress for scoring/diecutting... My shop has been in business since 1966, and I am the second generation, we stated with digital printing only about 14 years ago, before that it was offset only.

The B/W printer will not replace the ABDick 360 but will be more like an enhancement to your 8820. Yes you will more than likely be able to unplug the 360 and sell it. But you will find some of the work you intended to run digital still fit for offset, the lines get blurred on some static jobs. The convenience of being able to set the printer up to run and walk away or do another job else ware is worth it's weight in gold. I have found more jobs going to my Ricoh vs the ABDick just for the convince of not having to deal with a pressman, plates, wash-ups... you know the drill.

Random I don't have a lot of concern regarding my B/W click charge for the 8000AP, I did not buy it to run B/W, less than 10% of my volume is K only, usually when the job is 4/1, that's why I have the Ricoh.

 

[JaimeZ]

Craig,

We also have a letterpress, a Heidelberg Windmill--a sweet machine! I'll never get rid of it.

Yes, I agree with the convenience of of the digital machines. And you're right about not having to deal with pressman/plates routine. This is one of the many reasons for shifting certain jobs over. Where I see the digital machines as a major convenience, is when an emergency job comes in late in the day and it can be directed to the digital machines instead of having to deal with the pressman and all the issues involved with even a duplicator type press.

 

[Craig]

JamieZ,
My letterpress is a C&P with a Kluge feeder. I have printed some rather nice programs for some rather snooty folks off my Ricoh that rivaled a press. I am always amazed at the screens it prints.

 

[GregNac19]

Congratulations stressed!

You are fortunate enough to break free from the grasp of Xerox and be part of the future!

It's so nice to see you have taken on the open and honest comments of c6500 owners not the rhetoric of the uneducated.

We have just taken over another xerox client who had a 5252 and they are beside themselves with glee due to the quality, performance and reliability of there c6500 and your getting the flasher 6501 so good for you.

It is funny how in my whole area (4 counties and several printshops) I have NEVER seen any KM Machines in prints shops. They all have a DC240s, DC250s, and IGEN3s. Make sure whatever this guy tells you it is acurate. Also, keep in mind, Xerox is engineered in the US and Canada with some Fuji Xerox ties. Every other competitor is based out of Japan. If there is a "Real" problem your Xerox technician can speak to the engineers who designed the machine. So ask your local KM Service Tech. can he speak Japanese?

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

Also, keep in mind, Xerox is engineered in the US and Canada with some Fuji Xerox ties. Every other competitor is based out of Japan. If there is a "Real" problem your Xerox technician can speak to the engineers who designed the machine. So ask your local KM Service Tech. can he speak Japanese?

The only machines engineered and made by Xerox USA are i-Gen and Nuvera, the rest of the machines all fall back to Fuji-Xerox in Japan. In fact in most other parts of the world the machines such as DocuColor 8000 are labeled Fuji-Xerox.

My experience is since it has been Fuji who has been doing color longer they know it better then Xerox NY. I have been told while in Fuji- Hanover Park that they have had Xerox come in for them to teach them about color on their own i-Gen press. The i-Gen 4 with it's fancy new software upgrades is either a spin on CGS color management software or a rip off of it. Again Fuji was the one that brought this to the attention of Xerox and what an improvement it can make.

 

[Craig]

You both are correct. I had had some xerographic troubles last month and my Tech. was on the phone with the lead xerographic engineer in Rochester NY, solving the problem. When the press was installed Xerox needed to remove the Fuji firmware and install the Xerox firmware. To me it's almost like the GM/Chevy relationship.

 

[random]

It is funny how in my whole area (4 counties and several printshops) I have NEVER seen any KM Machines in prints shops. They all have a DC240s, DC250s, and IGEN3s. Make sure whatever this guy tells you it is acurate. Also, keep in mind, Xerox is engineered in the US and Canada with some Fuji Xerox ties. Every other competitor is based out of Japan. If there is a "Real" problem your Xerox technician can speak to the engineers who designed the machine. So ask your local KM Service Tech. can he speak Japanese?

LOL 8000 designed in the US!!! LOL It's all fuji Ive seen the r&d site in japan it's next to fuji film. Atleast some of the KM stuff is actually built in Japan not in China like all the xerox boxes.

To me it's almost like the GM/Chevy relationship.

Isn't that the company begging for cash just to float right now? Great relationship - it's working really well for them. It's probably a good thing your machine was designed in Japan.

 

[PineyBob]

Be Careful if you buy the OEM version of the KM Product from IKON. They are NOT supported by K-M USA but K-M Japan and i know of folks who have gotten bit right in the assets.

The other piece of that puzzle is IKON was purchased by Ricoh, so right now no one really knows what to expect.

 

[JaimeZ]

Wow, Craig and Random, I must say you guys are entertaining with your, what seems to be, friendly back and forths.

Frankly, when we get a production machine to compliment our Xante Iluimina, it will definitely be a machine that does not use fuser oil. I'm leaning towards the Canon 7000VP because of a local printer who is very happy with it. However, the Xerox guys in the area are top notch--too bad their machines use fuser oil. I must say also that the printers in the area with KM equipment seem to be happy with them too. It just makes it difficult to make a good decision, but I thank God we have many choices.

 

[GregNac19]

New Xerox machines do not use Fuser oil.

 

[JaimeZ]

You see, you learn so much valuable info on this forum. Xerox must be monitoring it.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

Be Careful if you buy the OEM version of the KM Product from IKON. They are NOT supported by K-M USA but K-M Japan and i know of folks who have gotten bit right in the assets.

The other piece of that puzzle is IKON was purchased by Ricoh, so right now no one really knows what to expect.

Ikon does have a graphic arts dedicated division that understands color and print for pay versus just a copy machine company. Only one of our KM machines is an Ikon and it has been ok so far.

Agreed here the future looks uncertain for KM at Ikon.

 

[PineyBob]

Ikon does have a graphic arts dedicated division that understands color and print for pay versus just a copy machine company. Only one of our KM machines is an Ikon and it has been ok so far.

Agreed here the future looks uncertain for KM at Ikon.

IKON does indeed have Graphic Arts Specialists and I have personally trained a great many of them on the 7000VP & Color Management

Please be aware that they also have a Facilities Management Group and Document Services that directly competes with Independent Print Shops.

You'll take note that the one poster here who admits to working for KM has been extremely SILENT regarding the relationship between KM USA and IKON. The reason why is because there is none.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

You'll take note that the one poster here who admits to working for KM has been extremely SILENT regarding the relationship between KM USA and IKON. The reason why is because there is none.

I'm not sure what the concern here over Ikon not working with KM USA. They don't make and engineer anything. I would think it would be better to work directly with KM Japan. People usually try to get as close to the manufacturer to reduce costs and to avoid issues down the road.

 

[PineyBob]

I'm not sure what the concern here over Ikon not working with KM USA. They don't make and engineer anything. I would think it would be better to work directly with KM Japan. People usually try to get as close to the manufacturer to reduce costs and to avoid issues down the road.

Well try calling Japan for support on the 6500 when it wets the bed and IKON no longer supports the KM product.

Put another way, you buy a Chevy from Joe's House of Chevys and 2 years later they decide to become Joe's Ford Store. In order to have Mr Goodwrench fix your Chevy you now have to visit PineyBob's House of Chevy's. Am I going to fix your brakes first or the brakes of a 20 year customer?

 

[GregNac19]

"Isn't that the company begging for cash just to float right now? Great relationship - it's working really well for them. It's probably a good thing your machine was designed in Japan." Random

Are you kidding! Which lie do I need to go over first. Xerox is not begging for money. Xerox leads production printing in volume and sales. The new 8000AP is something KM has NO ANSWER FOR! You still did not answer the question Random. Can you speak Japanese?
With new software programs and updates coming out everyday for programs like quark and indesign, would you rather call a technician who has only a 800 number to call and hope they give him the answer or a technician who can talk directly to the engineer who helped design the machine?
By the way Random, Xerox technicians go to Leesburg, VA for training on machines they work on. They go weeks out of the year to know the real ins and out of the machines. Plus, they only work on Xerox. How many relabled machines do you work on? Is it Ricoh, or Konica Minolta or IKON? Whats the difference?

 

[random]

"Isn't that the company begging for cash just to float right now? Great relationship - it's working really well for them. It's probably a good thing your machine was designed in Japan." Random

Are you kidding! Which lie do I need to go over first. Xerox is not begging for money. Xerox leads production printing in volume and sales. The new 8000AP is something KM has NO ANSWER FOR! You still did not answer the question Random. Can you speak Japanese?
With new software programs and updates coming out everyday for programs like quark and indesign, would you rather call a technician who has only a 800 number to call and hope they give him the answer or a technician who can talk directly to the engineer who helped design the machine?
By the way Random, Xerox technicians go to Leesburg, VA for training on machines they work on. They go weeks out of the year to know the real ins and out of the machines. Plus, they only work on Xerox. How many relabled machines do you work on? Is it Ricoh, or Konica Minolta or IKON? Whats the difference?

Are you kidding? where do I correct you first!

For one I did not say anything about Xerox begging for money, I was refering to the current automotive bailout. You are aware of current events?

You are corrrect KM don't have an answer for the 8000. We have an answer for the 252,260,2060,6060,700 and 5000. Next year we will have an answer for the 8000.

I don't need to speak Japanese as the Japanese speak very good english. Well when I go to Japan for training the english is quite good. You know where the machines come from.

Thats the good thing about xeriods only working on xerox equipment, they think they are the only option on the planet and when you push them out it's like someone has been tazzerd.