Xerox J75 Service Agreement Toner question

[jpfulton248]

We bought a used Xerox J75 from Xerox last week and when signing docs we got to the page about the service agreement and it said that we have to stay within 10% of manufacturers estimated yield or they have option to charge more.

Have you guys ever heard of that from Xerox?

 

[MailGuru]

Sounds like they just want to make sure you are not over-ordering toner and supplies, and then selling the surplus on ebay. "10% of manufacturers yield" simply means that, based on your monthly click count, you should be using x amount of toner and supplies (within a 10% variance).

 

[jpfulton248]

Fair enough and we aren't trying to get away with anything but my feeling is that if we want to do 100% 4/4 full coverage postcards all day we shouldn't get punished for that. We asked if they have ever enforced the rule and they admitted that they were aware of one time in the last 10 years that they had. It was with a church that was running the same job all the time. Some kind of full coverage color piece. So Xerox helped them "re-design" the art which is something they said they would help us do if it ever became a problem. It all sounds insane to me.

 

[MailGuru]

Yeah, I don't think it's anything to worry about. They are just trying to protect themselves against some crooks that do take advantage of the fact that toner is supplied free as part of your click charge. This happened very recently here in Florida:

http://www.wesh.com/news/suspects-accused-of-defrauding-xerox-out-of-72-million/36366354

 

[Craig]

There was a guy on here that had his lease through ComDoc and they limited his supply, or made him buy what was "over the contracted" amount. I'm not sure what became of it though.

 

[AP90]

From what I've been told about this 10% usage, it's based on using full coverage +10%. They said that nothing would ever come of this unless they looked at your clicks and there was no possible way of using that much toner. You have to think, they have no clue how much toner your actually using on your clicks. You could have a document with just a red number on it and it would show a color click. But in reality your using way more black than cmy. Or lay down a full red background like I do on flyers for one client but lay down very little of any other color.

 

[jpfulton248]

I think they are basing it on 7.5% coverage... or maybe that is just how the manufacturer bases their estimated yield.

 

[jpfulton248]

Not sure if anyone is familiar with it but there is free software called APFill that let's you process a pdf file to determine what kind of coverage it will require. It gives you CMYK all individually and then an average across all 4. No surprise that our all black text pages were are 5% and this particular cover art was 23% (well over the 10% that was on the contract though we made them change it to 20%).

 

[jrsc]

Just ask them to remove it. If they say it's so you don't sell the toner on the side, then tell them to rewrite it so it says you can use unlimited in your machine but can't use it in other machines or sell it. If they won't do that it shows their reason is so they can hold it over your head if they ever want to.
I dealt with it with Ricoh once. Everyone said our usage was fine and we were actually in the amount they said we should but one guy didn't like us and tried to use it to cause problems. Funny thing is most won't give you the recommended amount they use to determine the 10% over.

 

[MailGuru]

Just ask them to remove it. If they say it's so you don't sell the toner on the side, then tell them to rewrite it so it says you can use unlimited in your machine but can't use it in other machines or sell it. If they won't do that it shows their reason is so they can hold it over your head if they ever want to.
I dealt with it with Ricoh once. Everyone said our usage was fine and we were actually in the amount they said we should but one guy didn't like us and tried to use it to cause problems. Funny thing is most won't give you the recommended amount they use to determine the 10% over.

Why is everyone trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill? We've been using Xerox Color Digital Presses for over 10 years. In that time we've gone through a DocuColor 5000, two 8000AP's, an 8002, and now two Versant 2100's. ALL had the 10% toner clause (standard in their contracts). We do a lot of oversized 100% color coverage, post cards, booklets, posters, etc on everything from 60# gloss text to 120# Gloss cover. At our volume, it's not unusual for us to order toner by the pallet-load. In all that time, we've NEVER had any issue with toner or supplies from them (we have with other vendors, but not Xerox). We've never had any instance where it was enforced, or, even questioned. Xerox is not going to penalize you for doing your job and brining them revenue via monthly clicks. However, if you are doing something unethical with their toner or supplies, they will (and, probably should).

 

[Possumgal]

I think this is something that started when the 700s first came out. There was a rather severe toner shortage for a time, and people were selling it on eBay to those who couldn't get it. Probably a few still continued to do that to make money. It's really just sort of a clause stuck in the contract to discourage any attempts at selling the stuff. However, if you do go way over their estimated coverage consistently, they may want to rethink your rate to cover the increased toner usage, but in reality, it doesn't effect the average customer.

If you do go way over, they'll question you first. We had a lot of booklets to run at one time and used a lot more toner than usual for them. When we reordered toner, Xerox questioned it, but once we explained about the extra work they were fine with it.

 

[jpfulton248]

MailGuru you kind of anwered my question by saying you've signed a number of service agreements with the 10% provision on it. Just wanted to make sure we didn't do something stupid. Thanks.

 

[Louiscamp]

Canon came in with this glorious full color, full coverage example book for a press they wanted to sell and told us the same thing about the 5% coverage. I asked them if the same book was only 5% coverage, they said no. I said goodbye.

 

[MailGuru]

MailGuru you kind of anwered my question by saying you've signed a number of service agreements with the 10% provision on it. Just wanted to make sure we didn't do something stupid. Thanks.

You're welcome jpfulton248. I apologize if I got on my soap box!

A different analogy: I've got an inserter out in bindery that "cycles" at 10,000/hr. Actual throughput on that machine, with operator intervention, should be around 7,500 per hour. On an 8-hour night shift, figuring 7 productive hours (meal break, bathoom breaks, etc) I should have around 50,000 (give or take 10%) pieces completed and ready to go. When I get in, in the morning, if there's only 35,000 pieces completed. It desn't necessarily mean that the night-shift guys were goofing off. No heads will roll. Nobody's gonna get fired. I just need a "reasonable" explanation of why we only got 35,000 pieces done (bad material, mechanical problems, etc.). Once I get that, I'm good.

That's all Xerox is saying. If you are outside the 10% threshold, you are not going to "automatically" get charged a higher click charge. They may keep an eye on it and monitor it for a while, because, it could point to an ongoing machine problem, or, even a bad toner batch problem. As Possumgal said, they just need a "reasonable" explanation. Once they get that, they're good.

 

[jpfulton248]

That's all Xerox is saying. If you are outside the 10% threshold, you are not going to "automatically" get charged a higher click charge. They may keep an eye on it and monitor it for a while, because, it could point to an ongoing machine problem, or, even a bad toner batch problem. As Possumgal said, they just need a "reasonable" explanation. Once they get that, they're good.

That's actually exactly what the sales guys said. Basically that it would just prompt a conversation if we went over. That was all kind of acceptable to us though we weren't thrilled. A little too "big brother"-ish but whatever. The thing that we really didn't like is the fact that they said they knew of a specific time it actually was enforced. They made it sound like it was no big deal and to a non-profit (it was a church) that might be no big deal. For us it would be a big deal. In the end we just took their word for it that it would never come up (because it probably won't).

 

[MailGuru]

Yeah, the whole "church" thing sounds a little "hokie" to me (no disrespect to Virgina Tech fans intended). I'd be willing to bet that's either a made-up story, or, at the very least, an old wives tale passed down from sales guy to sales guy. As Possumgal correctly stated, it is a "deterrent". Like any other deterrent, if it has no teeth, it ceases to be a deterrent. They are not going to admit to you that it's never been enforced, anymore than the clerk at the convenience store is going to admit that the camera you see above the cash register is not really hooked up to anything. So, they had to say something............

 

[buckeyewta]

There was a guy on here that had his lease through ComDoc and they limited his supply, or made him buy what was "over the contracted" amount. I'm not sure what became of it though.

I am the guy that had the Comdoc machine. The sales rep promised me the same thing, we would never hit the mark where they charge extra. I found out too late that nothing the sales rep said was true. After they had the contract the didn't care. They even tried to charge me for parts to fix my machine that was on contract. They wanted to give me a certain allowance and charge for additional toners but everything they proposed was expensive to the point of not being able to make any profit. They completely dropped service on the machine but would not let me out of the lease. I did finally get Xerox to service the machine but at a price per click that we can only run it as a backup. We are still stuck paying a lease on a machine that we cannot use. We have since bought 3 machine from Xerox and could not be happier. They have never even mentioned toner usage and are giving us all the toner we need with no questions asked. I think the OP will be ok if the contract is with Xerox but I would never sign with a third party again.

 

[Guest]

Here is my experience with car salesmen and Xerox reps,

The sales guys will promise ANYTHING and then after install and sign off, the signed agreement will 100% govern your relationship with Xerox. "But the sales guy told me" doesn't matter to the Xerox behemoth bureaucracy. And the sales guy will disappear or conveniently forget what he promised. I haven't seen my Xerox rep for 3 years now. Last day I saw him was when I signed off on the install. You almost think you have a new close friend and then "POOF!" he's gone.... onto the next mark.

Xerox is essentially a huge billing machine / collection agency that sells & leases copiers. If they can justify another charge based on the agreement, they will impose it. Bottom line, if you can't agree to the terms as exactly written in the contract, don't sign the deal. They will negotiate the terms, but once it is signed, you're stuck with what's in the agreement.

Best of luck to you.

 

[jpfulton248]

I am the guy that had the Comdoc machine.

I'm a little freaked out by this. We were sold this machine from Michigan Office Solutions (MOS) which, we've been told, is owned by Global Imaging which is owned by Xerox. We were told that buying from Michigan Office Solutions is as close as you get to buying direct from Xerox if you live in Michigan. There used to be a direct-channel with Xerox but now Xerox has set up a branch in each state (or multiple in some states) that handles what are considered "direct sales". These "branches" are former third-parties that Xerox bought out and turned into direct sales branches. On their website they say "Michigan Office Solutions, a Xerox Company"... so I guess that sounds right.

Just looked at the ComDoc website because I had never heard of them. They say "ComDoc, a Xerox Company". Hoping we don't end up in the same situation you did.

EDIT: Just called the Xerox Service Department... Not sure how much she really knew about what I was asking but she told me that now you can only get a service agreement with a reseller. She said it's a recent change they made. I said "yeah, like a couple years ago right?" She said "no, more recent than that" She said that a couple weeks ago all of their service team left so they are trying to figure out what to do and one of their solutions is to have the resellers do all of the service.

 

[AP90]

I'm a little freaked out by this. We were sold this machine from Michigan Office Solutions (MOS) which, we've been told, is owned by Global Imaging which is owned by Xerox. We were told that buying from Michigan Office Solutions is as close as you get to buying direct from Xerox if you live in Michigan. There used to be a direct-channel with Xerox but now Xerox has set up a branch in each state (or multiple in some states) that handles what are considered "direct sales". These "branches" are former third-parties that Xerox bought out and turned into direct sales branches. On their website they say "Michigan Office Solutions, a Xerox Company"... so I guess that sounds right.

Just looked at the ComDoc website because I had never heard of them. They say "ComDoc, a Xerox Company". Hoping we don't end up in the same situation you did.

EDIT: Just called the Xerox Service Department... Not sure how much she really knew about what I was asking but she told me that now you can only get a service agreement with a reseller. She said it's a recent change they made. I said "yeah, like a couple years ago right?" She said "no, more recent than that" She said that a couple weeks ago all of their service team left so they are trying to figure out what to do and one of their solutions is to have the resellers do all of the service.

I'm not exactly sure how you bought your machine, but we got ours through a company that isnt owned by Xerox, but is a dealership. We contacted Xerox directly, and after an inquiry, we got a call back from this company, who is contracted with Xerox to handle all the negotiations for a certain area. But everything is Xerox. Our techs come from all over the area, and are Xerox technicians, not technicians for this company. When I order supplies or call for over the phone service, I get Xerox directly. So just because your talking with a company who's name isn't Xerox, doesn't mean your not buying the equipment and service directly from Xerox. And I must say the company I dealt with was absolutely amazing. They come down regularly to make sure everything is going good, check in often, and bend over backwards to take care of anything I need. And service with Xerox has been nothing short of excellent. And practically 0 problems with the machine after about 1.4 million clicks after 6 months.