Xerox V80 v Canon C750

[BigSi]

Hi there

I have a V80 and on the whole reasonably happy with it. (heaps better than my old Xerox 700) Just had the canon guy giving me the hard sell on either a C850 or C750 (only difference is speed)
Would this be a side ways move ? straight away I would be getting a slightly better click rate on the canon. (but not enough to get excited about). How do the two machines compare in regards to-
rolling solids, color consistency, registration etc... the canon rep keeps going on about how much better there online finishing is than Xerox (but he would wouldn't he). I know I have to consider service (Xerox has not been that great lately otherwise I would probably not consider it).

Your thoughts are much appreciated. thanks Simon

 

[jasonlesher]

I replaced a KM C7000 with a Canon C850 about 3 weeks ago. So far, I have absolutely no complaints. Color's consistent throughout runs, solid colors look significantly better than they did on KM and from what I've seen so far, textured stocks are significantly print significantly better. Of course, I'm sure all the new machines are going to have better quality than the C7000, which was being phased out when we got it.

That said, if you're comparing the standard online booklet maker, the Canon looks impressive to me so far. I had the 3.5" foot long saddle stitch unit on the KM. Talked to Ricoh and KM when I was looking at new equipment, and both said the booklet maker on their standard finisher is more for vanity-type office work and absolutely would not recommend it for heavy use. Two different Canon dealers assured me that I didn't need the saddle stitch unit, just the professional version of the booklet maker on the standard finisher, and I visited another local shop running a Canon ImagePress 10000, which has the same finisher. He had nothing but praise for it, and he uses it enough to justify paying for the squareback finisher as well. I did lose some capabilities switching from the separate saddle stitcher on the KM - no front edge trim, no tri-fold 8.5x11, and the maximum sheets went from 50 (200 pages) to 25 sheets (100 pages) on the Canon. However, if I was using sheets any heavier than 100gsm on the KM, the page count started dropping rapidly. I think, according to the specs, the unit could handle 3 sheets of 100# gloss cover. On the Canon, I ran a sample of a book (84 pages of 80# gloss text, plus 10 pt cover) that the KM could not handle, even if I lied to the machine about paper weights to make it try. To test the limits, I ran a 12 sheet (48 page) booklet on 100# gloss cover. The legs on the staple were pretty short, but it handled it.
As far as actual jobs, not just playing around, I ran 900 16-page booklets and 1,200 12-page booklets and had zero problems.

 

[BigSi]

Thanks Jason. All useful information. Anyone have a comparison with a Xerox V80 and/or V180? I do not have a lot of experience with KM gear.
thanks Simon

 

[Schnicklefritz]

If you are considering the C750, I can say the quality, color and property controls are good. But be sure to ask the salesperson about the production constraints. Long run jobs took a toll on it and we had frequent jamming problems. The techs were omnipresent and were always replacing parts. We found out the C750 was not meant for our kind of demands and we were forced to buy another printer dedicated to just invoice printing, thus relieving the C750 of half the workload. We have since had a lot less down time.

 

[Sjf]

We've hardly had any jamming with our C750, the biggest single run job we've had was a 10k impression booklet(finished off-line) and didn't have a single jam from what I can remember. The only issue I have with the press is it prints can be slightly oversaturated on some stocks.

O I'll add we've duplexed up to 450gsm with only a few jams but don't tell Canon

 

[Keith]

I just got a V180P in January. Being able to run all supported media at rated speed has been a huge productivity booster for us. I did seriously consider the Canon C750/850 but I still owed a bit much on my C75 that it wouldn't have saved me much money and it seemed to be a more lateral move than a vertical move. According to a National Print Research Council survey, the C700/750 ranked a little better than the Xerox C75 and V80. But if you look through this forum, I think you'll find more positives for the Versant 80/180 than for the Canon. For example, I've seen some posts about issues with envelopes on the Canon but all the posts about the Xerox have been good. We do a lot of envelopes so it was important that my next machine run envelopes well. Since I like Xerox, I'm sure I have plenty of confirmation bias.

 

[BigSi]

Thanks Keith. Have you run a V80? if so did you noticed any real differences between the V80 and V180, the feeling I'm getting is the only real difference are the finishing options. I know Xerox do not sell the V80 now. Xerox refuse to budge on my click rates (if I upgrade) they say my volumes are not high enough. Which of course takes away one of the main incentives to upgrade. ta Simon

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

What are your volumes?

 

[Keith]

Thanks Keith. Have you run a V80? if so did you noticed any real differences between the V80 and V180, the feeling I'm getting is the only real difference are the finishing options. I know Xerox do not sell the V80 now. Xerox refuse to budge on my click rates (if I upgrade) they say my volumes are not high enough. Which of course takes away one of the main incentives to upgrade. ta Simon

No, I have not and you are correct, the V80 and V180 are nearly identical. The only real change was the finishing options.

 

[BigSi]

What are your volumes?

Hi Braden

About 12k a month on my old xerox 700 and about 25k a month on my V80. (on average) All most all colour. I realise these are very low by US standards but not that uncommon here. I have an offset press which I still use. (Mostly NCR).

ta Simon

 

[bethanybrookes]

[h=3]The Canon Colour C750 Printer[/h]
Quick Facts

•Speed: 60/70 colour ppm, 65/75 black and white ppm.
•Media Versatility: Coated and uncoated stocks.
•Resolution: 2400 x 2400 dpi.
•Media Weights: 64 gsm to 300 gsm sizes.
•Media Sizes: Up to 13” x 19.2”/SRA3+/330 x 488mm.
•Duty Cycle: 300,000.
•Standard Paper Capacity: 3260 sheets
•Recommended Average Monthly Volume: 80,000 ppm.
•Paper sources: 4 standard, plus bypass.

[h=3]The Xerox Versant 80 Press[/h]
Quick Facts

•Speed: Up to 80ppm.
•Media Versatility: Coated, uncoated, tabs, envelopes, polyester/synthetic, textured, coloured, custom media and mixed-stock printing.
•Resolution: 2400 x 2400 dpi, 1200 x 1200 bit RIP rendering.
•Media Weights: 52 gsm to 350 gsm sizes.
•Media Sizes: Up 50 13” x 19.2”/SRA3+/330 x 488mm.
•Duty Cycle: 460,000.
•Standard Paper Capacity: 1900 sheets.
•Recommended Average Monthly Volume: 0-50,000 ppm.
•Paper sources: 3 standard trays plus bypass; 3 optional high capacity feeders.

 

[Sjf]

Those stats are 'wrong' the C750 is now rated at 350gsm, we've pushed ours to 450gsm duplex... shh don't tell Canon tho

One thing i would say is don't let them sell you on the the long single tray feeder like they did to my boss, so far we've never used long sheets even if we did it would lead to a ton of material waste due to the size of the sheets we have here in the EU, not sure if it makes more sense for US sheet sizes. On top of that if you plan to do NCR sets you'll have to use the standard trays which means the registration won't be great if you want collated sets, imo get the 3 draw air assist feeder

You may want to give Konica a look also as they have air feed feeder instead of air assisted and imo the print looked slightly better but I can't say if the colour is consistent over time, my boss was swung to Canon because they did offer us more and got us a deal on some finishing equipment from a partner so it'll be down to who gives you the better deal in your area i guess

 

[printing656]

From my experience, a Print Shop should not be buying the 750 or 850 from Canon. The machines I've seen run 12x18 coated stock but unable to consistently pull paper from the POD deck without jamming. This is the full deck, not the Lite version. The 750/850 couldn't maintain front to back registration if it's life depended on it. After a few hundred sheets, it would start bouncing around. The colors look good and stay consistent through runs, night and day compared to the worthless Canon 6010 and 8000/10000. Up time is pretty good as well on the 750/850.
This is my experience with a dozen of these as well as what other local Print Shops have experienced with 6010s/750s/800/850s.
Stick with KM, Ricoh, or Xerox for serious digital printing.

 

[Sjf]

From my experience, a Print Shop should not be buying the 750 or 850 from Canon. The machines I've seen run 12x18 coated stock but unable to consistently pull paper from the POD deck without jamming. This is the full deck, not the Lite version. The 750/850 couldn't maintain front to back registration if it's life depended on it. After a few hundred sheets, it would start bouncing around. The colors look good and stay consistent through runs, night and day compared to the worthless Canon 6010 and 8000/10000. Up time is pretty good as well on the 750/850.
This is my experience with a dozen of these as well as what other local Print Shops have experienced with 6010s/750s/800/850s.
Stick with KM, Ricoh, or Xerox for serious digital printing.

Never had these issues you mention but i think our POD deck is a newer type as it was the first to be sold in the UK

 

[BigSi]

thanks Guys. It definitely seems it would be a side ways move going from a V80 to a C850 or C750. I did notice a small increase in print quality on the canon but having said that it was just the sample the canon rep supplied. (he may have tweeked it a bit). I think the main angle was the quality of the online finishing. Has anyone got a comparison of the online finishing options between say a V180 and a C850. ta Simon

 

[kdw75]

thanks Guys. It definitely seems it would be a side ways move going from a V80 to a C850 or C750. I did notice a small increase in print quality on the canon but having said that it was just the sample the canon rep supplied. (he may have tweeked it a bit). I think the main angle was the quality of the online finishing. Has anyone got a comparison of the online finishing options between say a V180 and a C850. ta Simon

That is what caught my eye about the Canon Samples we have received in the mail. They sent us a sample that had complex dark graduations on un-coated cover, and it looked like offset. None of the banding that our Versant 2100 has in screens.

 

[wonderings]

That is what caught my eye about the Canon Samples we have received in the mail. They sent us a sample that had complex dark graduations on un-coated cover, and it looked like offset. None of the banding that our Versant 2100 has in screens.

I never trust any of the literature or samples given, I leave my judgement for when I print my own jobs on their demo units and then really see how it handles and prints.

 

[drosin6701]

I have had a Canon 750 for a little over a year, the print quality is good.
it is only rated to 300 GSM, anything above is "at your own risk" (i.e if you bust up parts, the service contract wont cover replacements)
The Service from CSA has been excellent.
Regarding envelopes definitely not the best for that, but you can manage it.
We have the inline booklet make without the trim unit it has has worked out great.
in my experience, the c750 does not handle synthetics well