Xerox Versant 280 Scratch Lines?

[NorwoodPress]

So I was printing some business cards on 350gsm Silk and I stopped the job when I noticed I was getting thin scratch lines all over the sheet.

I called an engineer out and he was adamant that it was the rollers in the booklet maker finisher section.

So he cleaned the rollers and still got the same issue. Then he cleaned the rollers in the decurler module and on the print engine itself, plus the high capacity trays.

He doesn't reckon its not the 2nd BTR as he says thats in good condition, as the meter reading is only on 20,000 clicks.

Personally I don't think its from the rollers because they are a certain thickness and these lines are all over the place, some are narrow and some are wide, as you will see from the photos below.

Plus some lines are continuous and others are like a dashed line. Like as though a vinyl record needle is going up and down on the paper scratching it.

The only other thing I can think is if it could be coming off from the IBT belt?

I have tried on different weights / stocks and still getting the same issue.

Any ideas what could be causing it?

 

[kslight]

Isolate if it’s in a specific color. If it’s in all colors, then examine for lines that match it - probably 2nd btr or fuser. If it’s not on single sided prints, then probably 2nd btr.
If it doesn’t line up with rollers in the paper path, it’s not a roller dragging.

If it was me and based on your other thread; had techs refusing to come out and or leaving with the machine still having the issue/no plan to return and fix, I would be on the phone with my sales rep and the service manager, this is not how service should be handled, imho. I can’t emphasize this enough.

 

[wonderings]

Have you tried swapping out colour drums?

 

[TJPrinter]

Do you get these lines when running simplex face up for output? In other words the stock isn’t going through the duplexing unit.

The only time I’ve seen similar lines is when duplexing heavier weight card stock. They are usually very thin lines that look like something is scratching the sheets and are most noticeable on heavy dark solids. The lines that you show seem a bit more pronounced than what I have seen. I have never been able to pinpoint exactly where this is occurring but it seems like it’s in the first section of the duplexing unit. If you open 2e at the duplex unit do the lines line up with any of the plastic deflectors?

I’ve been reasonably successful at eliminating the lines by increasing the fuser temperature.

 

[NorwoodPress]

Do you get these lines when running simplex face up for output? In other words the stock isn’t going through the duplexing unit.

The only time I’ve seen similar lines is when duplexing heavier weight card stock. They are usually very thin lines that look like something is scratching the sheets and are most noticeable on heavy dark solids. The lines that you show seem a bit more pronounced than what I have seen. I have never been able to pinpoint exactly where this is occurring but it seems like it’s in the first section of the duplexing unit. If you open 2e at the duplex unit do the lines line up with any of the plastic deflectors?

I’ve been reasonably successful at eliminating the lines by increasing the fuser temperature.

I get these lines on both single and double sided. I'm thinking it could be the plastic deflectors too. I tried increasing and decreasing the fuser temperature and still the same.

 

[NorwoodPress]

Isolate if it’s in a specific color. If it’s in all colors, then examine for lines that match it - probably 2nd btr or fuser. If it’s not on single sided prints, then probably 2nd btr.
If it doesn’t line up with rollers in the paper path, it’s not a roller dragging.

If it was me and based on your other thread; had techs refusing to come out and or leaving with the machine still having the issue/no plan to return and fix, I would be on the phone with my sales rep and the service manager, this is not how service should be handled, imho. I can’t emphasize this enough.

The engineer came back out today with the parts. So he changed the fuser, then the 2nd btr and the IPT belt. Looking at that it did have a lot of scratch lines which looked similar. But now we have changed all 3 parts, we are still getting the odd few marks. So he's took away a few samples and going to show the other engineers if they have any ideas.

 

[DYP]

We used to get similar marks on the 2100 and 3100 which came from a roller at the very end of the print engine. Usually just cleaning them cured the problem. On duplex it would only appear on the top side/side 2. Not sure the 280 has such a roller.

 

[TJPrinter]

Your lines are definitely more noticeable than what I have had and I have also had the lines on my previous Versant 80 but you needed to hold the sheet just right to see the lines and it was only when duplexing. The Versant 80 didn’t have a finisher so it’s something in the engine area that causes this, so most likely not rollers in the finisher.

If you could update the post when they resolve the problem it would be helpful because I’m sure the same issue will creep up at some point on other 280’s.

 

[NorwoodPress]

Your lines are definitely more noticeable than what I have had and I have also had the lines on my previous Versant 80 but you needed to hold the sheet just right to see the lines and it was only when duplexing. The Versant 80 didn’t have a finisher so it’s something in the engine area that causes this, so most likely not rollers in the finisher.

If you could update the post when they resolve the problem it would be helpful because I’m sure the same issue will creep up at some point on other 280’s.

Thanks TJ, from reading your comment about you saying that you haven't got any finisher on your V80, like you said that made me wonder its something on the engine itself. Well I sat and had a good look inside it this morning and I think I have found it.

Next to the 2nd BTR there is a thin cover plate on the 2a section. I unscrewed it off and found a hard plastic long roller. Looking at it you can see the dotted lines and long lines on it. Also I saw the diagonal indent mark that I have seen on jobs.

So I have WhatsApp the engineer to show him, and hopefully will come back out soon to replace that part.

The only thing is I need to find out, what has caused it to scratch like that?

My main paper I run is 150gsm, 250gsm and 350gsm in silk. 120gsm and 350gsm in uncoated. 75gsm NCR paper.

The only other new paper I tried with samples was the tearproof paper from Xerox Nevertear and Ashgrove Perma Paper and Picofilm.

 

[pippip]

So if it's that roller its scratching the sheet prior to toner hitting the sheet.

 

[DYP]

So if it's that roller its scratching the sheet prior to toner hitting the sheet.

Could very well be that roller because that would cause the same scratches on both sided of the sheet. I wonder what the roller underneath that roller looks like.

 

[TJPrinter]

Thanks TJ, from reading your comment about you saying that you haven't got any finisher on your V80, like you said that made me wonder its something on the engine itself. Well I sat and had a good look inside it this morning and I think I have found it.

Next to the 2nd BTR there is a thin cover plate on the 2a section. I unscrewed it off and found a hard plastic long roller. Looking at it you can see the dotted lines and long lines on it. Also I saw the diagonal indent mark that I have seen on jobs.

So I have WhatsApp the engineer to show him, and hopefully will come back out soon to replace that part.

The only thing is I need to find out, what has caused it to scratch like that?

My main paper I run is 150gsm, 250gsm and 350gsm in silk. 120gsm and 350gsm in uncoated. 75gsm NCR paper.

The only other new paper I tried with samples was the tearproof paper from Xerox Nevertear and Ashgrove Perma Paper and Picofilm.

Nice detective work!
Wow, that looks like it's in rough shape. I just pulled the cover on my 280 to see what kind of shape it was in. It looks nothing like yours and I have about 600,000 clicks on it. It's still smooth with no markings at all. Mine is a hard roller and if yours is the same I can't imagine what could cause that kind of damage. The primary charge roller is the roller under this roller.

I don't run much silk but I can't see how that would be much different than the gloss I run. My biggest problem is the next roller on the 2nd btr, it will last about 25,000 clicks if I'm lucky.

 

[NorwoodPress]

Nice detective work!
Wow, that looks like it's in rough shape. I just pulled the cover on my 280 to see what kind of shape it was in. It looks nothing like yours and I have about 600,000 clicks on it. It's still smooth with no markings at all. Mine is a hard roller and if yours is the same I can't imagine what could cause that kind of damage. The primary charge roller is the roller under this roller.

I don't run much silk but I can't see how that would be much different than the gloss I run. My biggest problem is the next roller on the 2nd btr, it will last about 25,000 clicks if I'm lucky.

Thanks TJ, thats interesting that you have done that many clicks and yours is in good shape. Like I say our brand new machine only came in January this year. Maybe the roller could of been manufactured like this and the marking is now only showing.

Anyway I sent the photos to the Xerox engineer on WhatsApp and he called me back. He said that is called a registration roller, so he will order the parts in, as he said there is a roller underneath that one too. So it will be interesting to see what that will look like as well.

Yes, I have heard and been told about the 2nd btr. There is a good forum on Xerox page called "The Dark side of Versant 2nd BTR". The engineer did tell me that when that part needs replacing, he will train me up for future use, instead of having to wait for an engineer to keep coming out to change it.

I'm learning quite a bit so far about the Versants, especially coming from a C60. Quite a step up.

 

[warlegs]

We get these scratches on our Versafire every few months and it's from the transfer roller. Different machines but possibly same issue.. Rollers w/scratches on them that transfer over.

 

[NorwoodPress]

We get these scratches on our Versafire every few months and it's from the transfer roller. Different machines but possibly same issue.. Rollers w/scratches on them that transfer over.

That's interesting that you get this on your Heidelberg digital printer. I wonder what is causing it though? because I can understand getting scratches on the sides of the roller from the paper edge. But to get them in the middle and a large indent mark, I can't get my head around that. Especially as it's a hard plastic roller. Well once this part gets changed, I am going to record how long it lasts and keep checking on it to see.

 

[TJPrinter]

I'm learning quite a bit so far about the Versants, especially coming from a C60. Quite a step up.

It’s a very productive machine for me. I just wish Fuji/Xerox would resolve a few quality issues that they have been having. Hopefully you'll be up and running again very soon!

 

[NorwoodPress]

It’s a very productive machine for me. I just wish Fuji/Xerox would resolve a few quality issues that they have been having. Hopefully you'll be up and running again very soon!

The bits I have done so far, have been great. Also it's our first time having an external Fiery with Impose, which has helped out massively for doing layups, especially with things like numbering. Instead of me having to do it all in InDesign. Have you ever done any speciality stocks, like clear plastics, metallic stocks etc, synthetics ?

 

[TJPrinter]

The bits I have done so far, have been great. Also it's our first time having an external Fiery with Impose, which has helped out massively for doing layups, especially with things like numbering. Instead of me having to do it all in InDesign. Have you ever done any speciality stocks, like clear plastics, metallic stocks etc, synthetics ?

I have run synthetic stock successfully without issue other than minor static. I did try some chrome adhesive stock and that was challenging and needs a bit more trial and error to get it right. It was fine because it was laminated for outdoor decals but the toner did not adhere as well as I would have liked. The static however was outrageous and the sheets absolutely need some type of static elimination at the exit. When I say outrageous I mean like ouch, that hurts! So not sure if all metallic stock would have the same issues.

I’ve also looked at the Adaptive CMYK+ Kit and the samples are nice but I’ve decided to go the route of sleeking to add embellishment for short runs.

 

[NorwoodPress]

I have run synthetic stock successfully without issue other than minor static. I did try some chrome adhesive stock and that was challenging and needs a bit more trial and error to get it right. It was fine because it was laminated for outdoor decals but the toner did not adhere as well as I would have liked. The static however was outrageous and the sheets absolutely need some type of static elimination at the exit. When I say outrageous I mean like ouch, that hurts! So not sure if all metallic stock would have the same issues.

I’ve also looked at the Adaptive CMYK+ Kit and the samples are nice but I’ve decided to go the route of sleeking to add embellishment for short runs.

Hi TJ, so the engineer came out with another new roller, but this one was in very bad shape as well. Quite a few scratches and dents on it, makes me wonder if it's been used and just resent out? He has ordered another roller, just to see what condition this will come in.

You know when you said your registration roller is in good condition, would you mind taking a photo of yours so I can see?

It's making me wondering if there is some kind of manufacturing issue going on?

Here is photos below of the new roller.

 

[NorwoodPress]

While I am still waiting for a third new roller, I had a look around the small rollers on the engine itself.

Looking at the 2b section area, these rollers look fine.

Then there were 2 rollers on the 2d section that were in bad shape.

Underneath I could see another 2 rollers which could also be contributing to the issue.

The rest of the rollers on the high capacity trays, decurl module and booklet maker finisher look to be fine from what I can see.