Xerox versus Canon

[Dave at clg]

Hello All,
I'm also new to the forum so please be patient if I don't follow the correct protocal. My company is going through the painful testing and comparing of the Canon 7000VP and the Xerox 7000AP. The owner (the man that ulimately has to pay for the machine) insist the quality of the Canon is superior. I, the one that needs run the machine, feel that the quality is very comparable. I also feel that Xerox knows the production demands in print shop versus Canon in an office. (This is only a gut feeling) As far as that is concerned The canon sales team is starting to dump on how bad the Xerox is. I can't run full size sheets in all the drawers-Wrong, It can't duplex over 80# cover-Wrong, and that it doesn't have an internal calbration checking every sheet that goes through-Wrong.

So I would like to know what experiences anybody else is having looking at the two machines, or if you already went through it if you could share your thoughts of why
you went the way you did.

Thanks

 

[Colorblind]

We went through the same process when we needed to choose between Xerox DC-242, Canon 5000 and Konica bizhub. Of course these machines are not in the same category as the ones your shopping for. But I think the process is the same: you need to make a list of the features you would expect from the machine you will buy, rate every feature as very important, important or not so important. Then you make tests and measure everything. The best thing is to convince both Xerox and Canon to install their printer at your location for a week or so. When we did our tests, we discovered that Konica was the fastest machine but print quality was unreliable to our standards. Xerox and Canon were almost similar but the Xerox showed a much better color gamut (very close to SWOP gamut)and was a bit faster than the Canon. So we went with Xerox because of our rating list. Good luck!

 

[Dave at clg]

Thanks Colorblind. I would love to be able to be able to do a test drive like that. Unfortunately the size of the machines will not allow for me to do that. Thanks for the input.

 

[Craig]

Tell the man with the money to get EVERYTHING the Canon salesperson is telling you in writing. Find out what the recourse will be when the machine does not perform up to the CED.

The reason they are bad mouthing Xerox is because Xerox has the lion's share in the production color market. They have been there much longer, and know what our demands are. Your gut feeling is correct. Ask the Canon sales rep about the 7000vp beta tester in NY who ran almost all his prints in B/W, because the clicks were free so he didn't have to use his B/W machine. And ask about the drums not lasting as long as they are spec'd. and bad service from the 3rd party dealer who may or may not have been properly trained.

The ImagePress 7000 is a nice machine, but I would get everything in writing, I've been burnt by Canon in the past on their "flagship" machines.

 

[arossetti]

A big feature to me is Xerox tech support and field technicians. You can split hairs on the specs but when sh&* hits the fan Xerox has always resolved my problems better (faster) then ricoh or canon.

 

[Craig]

A big feature to me is Xerox tech support and field technicians. You can split hairs on the specs but when sh&* hits the fan Xerox has always resolved my problems better (faster) then ricoh or canon.

I'll second that, when I made the switch from Canon to Xerox it was night and day with service and support. Canon still has the office mentality, Xerox (regards to the production level) is far superior.
Now if someone had a Xerox "Office/Business" color device and is using that on a production level then you'll get what you have. You shouldn't expect the same level of support on a $15,000.00 machine as I do on a $350,000.00 machine. I'm sorry but a DC 242 is not a production machine... just look at it for love of Pete, it's an office copier, I don't care what the sales monkey tells you. You can put BMW sticker on VW but it's still a VW.

 

[leetaylor]

I've been very impressed with the quality of output I have been shown from the canon 7000 flag ship machine, BUT at the end of the day we opted for the Xerox Docucolor 5000 because of the excellent support and engineer base that Xerox has. As someone else has already mentioned canon has no experience in the production arena, office YES - production NO!

 

[random]

$350,000.00? thats 50k depreciation in two threads. Anyhue, when I was working for xerox, canon was the arch rival so it surprises me that you guys say they have no production exprience like for instance the CLC5100. I will say however canon seem to have lost there way. I think this is probably because they had to wait soo long for the 7000 and 6000.

Canon were pretty much stuck with the clc5100 (a first gen printer) as there only option other than the C1 (second gen) which is too slow, like 2 SRA3 a minute. The 5100 was a marginal printer for it's age and they tried to plug the gap with the C1 till the 7000 came out which was completely unaffordable. Now the 6000 is out but it sounds like it is pretty unreliable.

Maybe they focused too much on there digital cameras and such and have lost focus on digital printing (no pun intended).

But yeah, if you can't rely on the service then don't buy the box even if it's one of the xerox ones that never breaks down, you need them to commit to a 2 hour response time. If they can do this atleast you know they have the resources to deal with your problems.

 

[Craig]

Well said Random!

I will say the CLC 4000/5100 were terrible production boxes, and Canon will be the first to tell you. I can't tell you how many problems I had with our CLC4000's. Let's just say that my click charge was .09 each and the cost to service the machine from Gordon Flesch was about .12/click. That was before they figured in toner and fuser oil. They lost .03/click just to keep it operational! I kept the last 2 sheets of the service history and from 11/14/2005 to 11/16/2007 they were here 103 times!!!! That's better than 4 calls per month! And I was only averaging 42,000 clicks per month. On top of those 103 service calls I had 4 visits from a Canon Regional Service Manager and Regional Sales Manager.

Oh, and Canon's solution was to get a 7000VP to replace the CLC4000...NOT!

 

[Dave at clg]

Hey everyone, thanks for the input. I am going to print out everyones post and bring it to the final decision meeting.

 

[Drewstre]

Hiya-
I work at a medium-sized print shop, and we bought our first digital machine right at a year ago. We went with the DC242 (baby steps). I am the guy that runs that machine all day every day. The two things that sprang into my mind when reading the original post... the print quality is _excellent_, and the techs are great. Now, actually GETTING the tech can be arduous. I think we were promised 4-hour onsite service, and so far that hasn't happened... it's been as much as a day or two, but here's the thing, and I think this is important: In the year that we've had the 242, it has never had a problem that kept it from getting a job finished on time. But the techs, and the guys they rely on for support, are great.

The 7000AP's print engine itself is likely similar to the one on my lowly 242, but this is a good thing. It's neat watching guys walk into the Xerox room, guys that have been in printing for a long time, and watch them say, "wow." Even under the loupe, the shadows and gradients look good.

One thing about the 242, it'll run stock it is not spec'd to run. It'll duplex much heavier stock than it's supposed to. For straight runs, the brochure says up to 110lb stock. I run 129lb Hannoart cover no problem (both 8.5x11 and 13x19). I've had it staple jobs that it really didn't want to, but it would do it.

As for the front end, we went with the Fiery. It's sufficiently capable as far as things like color and options are concerned, but it's been pretty buggy... stupid simple little bugs that add up to making your day just a little longer. Also, be prepared to do any serious imposition before it ever gets to the Fiery, even if you get the Imposition package. Hot folders is the way to go for most stuff.

Long story short, we're about to get another Xerox (prolly a 700).

Drewstre

 

[Craig]

Drewstre,
You need to get on your service and sales about the lag in on site service. If you were told 4 hours then make sure they are there in 4 hours. Place a second call in 4 hours to light a match. At the 5 hour mark start calling your sales person, don't put up with it.

Not sure how your service work but for me after I place a call the Tech. will call me back within 1 hour to tell me when he will arrive. The longest I had to wait was 3 hours, but the machine was still operational at the time.

You are correct, the 7000/8000AP prints are right up there with the best, including the iGen. I have a customer that is a larger 4 color Heidleberg shop that will farm out the short stuff to me and their customers can't tell the difference. Their pressman was rather taken back too when I ran a job with stochastic screens, and it actually looked smoother then their offset job.

 

[Dave at clg]

Drewster,
Craig is correct, I am being told from both Canon and Xerox that I will have a 1 in half hour response time. Now my shop has 2 B/W Canons in our mailing department, and they have told me that it could be a full day before they get service. I have been told that the techs for the 7000/8000AP and IGENs are sought after position and those techs take total ownership of their machines. Still don't know the final outcome but I will share what happens.

 

[Craig]

Drewster,
I have been told that the techs for the 7000/8000AP and IGENs are sought after position and those techs take total ownership of their machines. Still don't know the final outcome but I will share what happens.

Absolutely correct, My tech has 30 years with Xerox and will call me with in 1/2 hour when I place my call, and I have his cell phone to call when I need. I have the largest machine in his territory and he said I have priority over any of the smaller machines he has.

Dave, don't forget if you go with Xerox you will have to have room for parts, lot's of parts. I have about 80% of all parts on the shelf(s) so when they are needed they are here, no waiting for the next day like Canon.

 

[kathymc]

Kathy

Kathy

Hi Dave,
We have been running a Canon C1 for the last 15 months, & because of its constant breakdowns, (it has not printed a sheet for the last week, & we are still waiting for the promised tech with parts) we have been forced to sign up for a xerox CL 60/7511.
The xerox seems a far more robust reliable machine, & the documentation that comes with it appears a lot more transparent.
Canon's response to our problems is that we must be running the wrong stocks or cutting them incorrectly. But, for three years prior to the C1 we had a Canon 3200, it had no problems with our stocks.
I know the machines that you are looking at are the next step up from the C1, but the C1 truly is a lemon, & their treatment of customers leaves a lot to be desired.
Kathy

 

[Drewstre]

Ya, I know. I keep telling myself that I'm gonna start crackin skulls, but then I get busy... Anyway, we are in negotiations with Xerox for another machine, and the broken 4-hour promise is definitely a topic. But I don't wanna derail the thread... I'll post a new thread with the resolution soon.

Thanks all...

 

[Dave at clg]

Thanks for the input Kathy, we replaced a 3200 with a Konika Bizhub C500 3 years ago because of the same reasons. Unfortunately that opened up a whole new can of worms that can probable be its own discussion.

 

[Dave at clg]

Drewstre,
Could your location have anything to do with your response time. I know I am within less than 1 hour from Canon and Xerox offices where the techs work out of. If you are under a contract and have that in writing I would start pitching a fit.

 

[kathymc]

We are actually under an hour from their service techs, but only had a verbal as to their promised response time at purchase, & have now been told that with rising fuel, they will definitely be coming down less. I have tried throwing tantrums, begging, even come close to crying, but it doesn't work. General response from canon was it must be our guillotining & stock.
Our new xerox arrives tomorrow, so I'm sure that canon will give us worse treatment, if possible, but hopefully the xerox should be more reliable.
Kathy

 

[kathymc]

Tell the man with the money to get EVERYTHING the Canon salesperson is telling you in writing. Find out what the recourse will be when the machine does not perform up to the CED.

The reason they are bad mouthing Xerox is because Xerox has the lion's share in the production color market. They have been there much longer, and know what our demands are. Your gut feeling is correct. Ask the Canon sales rep about the 7000vp beta tester in NY who ran almost all his prints in B/W, because the clicks were free so he didn't have to use his B/W machine. And ask about the drums not lasting as long as they are spec'd. and bad service from the 3rd party dealer who may or may not have been properly trained.

The ImagePress 7000 is a nice machine, but I would get everything in writing, I've been burnt by Canon in the past on their "flagship" machines.

I fully understand what you mean by get everything in writing, wish I had had your advice earlier. The other thing that I would add would be to carefully read every term of your contract, even on a price update. Our canon dealer deftly slipped in an entire change of terms on a pay for click only machine, & now wants to charge $10,000 to take it away.
Kathy