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  • Canon C8000 with Plockmatic - What's your opinion

    We are seriously considering switching from our Versant 2100 to a Canon C8000 with the Plockmatic BLM50. We've never had anything but Xerox equipment and we're nervous about making the switch. It's hard to tell what issues are going to crop up until you really start digging into using the machine.

    Some background: We've had nothing but trouble with both of our Versant 2100's. The major issue is color registration (business cards printed 24up come out three different colors - depending on which row they're in). We've had the techs come out endlessly trying to fix it. We've made no progress in a year and Xerox has told us that either "the issue is within spec", "it's the lighting in our building" or my personal favorite "it's an optical illusion."
    Obviously, telling our customers their business cards will look fine if they just walk outside and look at them in perfect sunlight is the logical solution.

    Our lease is ending on one of the machines. Xerox is trying to convince us that the 3100 is going to be better while simultaneously saying it's the same print engine as the 2100.

    Our local canon rep has offered a great deal on a C8000 with the Plockmatic booklet maker with a lower lease and click rate than what we have now. The Versant 2100s slow down so much on mixed media and books we simply cannot print covers and inside pages simultaneously and longer book runs eat into our production schedule. Canon has said the C8000's solves this problem with dual fusers.

    Lastly, we've been using Fiery Impose and now need to make a decision between the Fiery Impose vs the PrismaSync w/PrismaPrepare option for imposition.


  • #2
    Go off line with the bookletmaker. We have the BM500 with the vacuum feeder, square fold and trimmer. Much more versatile since you are not dependent on a single print engine. Our BM500 is about 6 years old now and has outlasted 2 print engines out of the 4 that feed it.

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    • #3
      Which vacuum feeder do you have? We’ve been assured that we will be able to take the plockmatic offline - which I admit is one of the selling points. We are working on becoming a debt free shop so we will actually own this machine outright in 12 months.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by tngcas View Post
        We are seriously considering switching from our Versant 2100 to a Canon C8000 with the Plockmatic BLM50. We've never had anything but Xerox equipment and we're nervous about making the switch. It's hard to tell what issues are going to crop up until you really start digging into using the machine.

        Some background: We've had nothing but trouble with both of our Versant 2100's. The major issue is color registration (business cards printed 24up come out three different colors - depending on which row they're in). We've had the techs come out endlessly trying to fix it. We've made no progress in a year and Xerox has told us that either "the issue is within spec", "it's the lighting in our building" or my personal favorite "it's an optical illusion."
        Obviously, telling our customers their business cards will look fine if they just walk outside and look at them in perfect sunlight is the logical solution.

        Our lease is ending on one of the machines. Xerox is trying to convince us that the 3100 is going to be better while simultaneously saying it's the same print engine as the 2100.

        Our local canon rep has offered a great deal on a C8000 with the Plockmatic booklet maker with a lower lease and click rate than what we have now. The Versant 2100s slow down so much on mixed media and books we simply cannot print covers and inside pages simultaneously and longer book runs eat into our production schedule. Canon has said the C8000's solves this problem with dual fusers.

        Lastly, we've been using Fiery Impose and now need to make a decision between the Fiery Impose vs the PrismaSync w/PrismaPrepare option for imposition.
        On your 2100 if the MOB sensors are cleaned regurally there is no reason you should be having color registration issues.

        "The Versant 2100s slow down so much on mixed media" there is a setting for that. On the last page of the Maintenance Settings under Productivity Mode set middle setting for up to 300gsm or bottom setting for 350gsm.



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        • #5
          Originally posted by DYP View Post

          On your 2100 if the MOB sensors are cleaned regurally there is no reason you should be having color registration issues.

          "The Versant 2100s slow down so much on mixed media" there is a setting for that. On the last page of the Maintenance Settings under Productivity Mode set middle setting for up to 300gsm or bottom setting for 350gsm.


          Yeah, our V180P is a CHAMP for mixed media.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DYP View Post

            On your 2100 if the MOB sensors are cleaned regularly there is no reason you should be having color registration issues.

            "The Versant 2100s slow down so much on mixed media" there is a setting for that. On the last page of the Maintenance Settings under Productivity Mode set middle setting for up to 300gsm or bottom setting for 350gsm.
            I found the setting for the mixed media and I'll give it a try - I'll have to play around more with what's all in the maintenance settings if there's more options like that hiding in there.

            As far as the sensors go, I'm honestly not 100% sure which one is called the MOB sensors (more I learn, the less I know). There's two sets of sensors we clean daily, the ones that you need the wand to clean (underneath the drums) and the ones on the side of the drum tray. I'm skeptical that those are the issue since the techs haven't been able to fix the problem either. The color issue is mostly that the top of the sheet tends to shift magenta and the bottom of the sheet tends to print more true to color. The techs keep saying it's a illusion and/or due to our lighting but I mean, if the cards are coming off the same sheet and I'm viewing them in the same lighting then I don't see how they should be different colors. I'm the first to admit how little I know compared to most but I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this one.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tngcas View Post

              I found the setting for the mixed media and I'll give it a try - I'll have to play around more with what's all in the maintenance settings if there's more options like that hiding in there.

              As far as the sensors go, I'm honestly not 100% sure which one is called the MOB sensors (more I learn, the less I know). There's two sets of sensors we clean daily, the ones that you need the wand to clean (underneath the drums) and the ones on the side of the drum tray. I'm skeptical that those are the issue since the techs haven't been able to fix the problem either. The color issue is mostly that the top of the sheet tends to shift magenta and the bottom of the sheet tends to print more true to color. The techs keep saying it's a illusion and/or due to our lighting but I mean, if the cards are coming off the same sheet and I'm viewing them in the same lighting then I don't see how they should be different colors. I'm the first to admit how little I know compared to most but I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this one.
              We had lots of color issues with our 2100, which was installed in 2014. Cleaning those sensors every other morning has helped dramatically. Slide out the drum drawer while facing the machine. On the underside of the drum drawer, to the left of the black drum, on the bottom side, you will see 3 holes and on ours a lot of toner buildup along the metal they are in. Reach in there with a folded up paper towel or q-tip and lightly brush away any toner.

              A Plockmatic is definitely the way to go. We had a little booklet was on 80# accent cover and 20# bond pages. The machine would only run about 1 book per minute. We switched over to "Speed" from "Quality" and it ran at full speed without slow downs. We generally keep it on quality unless we have a mixed media job.

              All of that being said, we are also switching to another company. We are going to try a couple of Ricoh's this go round. We have been having some supply issues with Xerox as far as drums and bad chips on the toner, but what really made us switch was the lower click rate, which Xerox actually was willing to beat after finding out we were switching, but the 5th color station sealed the deal. We have a couple of large clients who are planning to use some of the special effects offered by the 5th color station. Xerox could have kept us as a customer, but they didn't offer us a competitive click rate until we were already out the door. It really amazed me, but they were willing to go under 3.5 cents on 13x19 sheets for a V3100.
              Last edited by kdw75; 06-09-2019, 11:57 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by tngcas View Post

                I found the setting for the mixed media and I'll give it a try - I'll have to play around more with what's all in the maintenance settings if there's more options like that hiding in there.

                As far as the sensors go, I'm honestly not 100% sure which one is called the MOB sensors (more I learn, the less I know). There's two sets of sensors we clean daily, the ones that you need the wand to clean (underneath the drums) and the ones on the side of the drum tray. I'm skeptical that those are the issue since the techs haven't been able to fix the problem either. The color issue is mostly that the top of the sheet tends to shift magenta and the bottom of the sheet tends to print more true to color. The techs keep saying it's a illusion and/or due to our lighting but I mean, if the cards are coming off the same sheet and I'm viewing them in the same lighting then I don't see how they should be different colors. I'm the first to admit how little I know compared to most but I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this one.
                Sounds like your cleaning the correct sensors.

                Now your saying color shift and not color registration. Which is it? Is it that the CMYK does not line up when printing registration targets or that the color density is not uniform from inboard to outboard (side to side)? Or is the color density different from lead edge to trail edge? If it is inboard to outboard are you running the Uniform Density Adjustment and what do the targets look like if you fold the sheet in half and then fold the edged back about 2 inches in from the sides?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Good info
                  Last edited by Digital Insight; 06-11-2019, 07:03 PM. Reason: typo

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                  • #10
                    We have the same issue with our 10000, so be sure to bring the same paper and files for your demo. We have a specific business card that has a 4 color grey that is next to impossible to print with uniform density, even after a PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DYP View Post

                      Sounds like your cleaning the correct sensors.

                      Now your saying color shift and not color registration. Which is it? Is it that the CMYK does not line up when printing registration targets or that the color density is not uniform from inboard to outboard (side to side)? Or is the color density different from lead edge to trail edge? If it is inboard to outboard are you running the Uniform Density Adjustment and what do the targets look like if you fold the sheet in half and then fold the edged back about 2 inches in from the sides?
                      I'm not sure of the correct language to use here - I think I do mean color shift and not color registration. If you print three rows of business cards onto a single 12in x 18in sheet - the bottom row is a different color than the middle row which is different from the top row.

                      Originally posted by DYP View Post

                      If it is inboard to outboard are you running the Uniform Density Adjustment.
                      We do run the Uniform Density Adjustment and it fixes the majority but not all of the issue. Even comparing top to bottom right after running it there's still a slight magenta hue to the top of the the sheet. Tech keeps telling me I should NEVER run the Uniform Density Adjustment because he says it messes up the Full Width Array but it's the only thing that helps at least a little bit with the problem and they haven't given me another solution. <shrugs>
                      Last edited by tngcas; 06-10-2019, 10:39 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Digital Insight View Post
                        KDW

                        I am right there with you on XEROX

                        We have been a XEROX customer for over 12 years.

                        They are just about to lose us based on CLICK and the FACT that they are MARRIED to their damn "service base" which is really just MORE CLICK.....
                        I didn't like the service base either and they're pretty insistent that we have to sign a lease of one kind or another. I've decided that while being tied down to the same company for three to five years may be the standard in the industry, it's a standard I don't like and since we're putting out a lot of money every month in click charges - I'm going to go with the company that lets me do business the way I want to. Especially since it appears I can save money doing it. I might end up being wrong but it's not like doing a lease isn't something we can't do if this doesn't work out.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by namelessentity View Post
                          We have the same issue with our 10000, so be sure to bring the same paper and files for your demo. We have a specific business card that has a 4 color grey that is next to impossible to print with uniform density, even after a PM.
                          That's not encouraging to hear but very useful to know. Every salesperson swears their machine is better but I'd rather know what to expect - can you define what you mean by PM?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tngcas View Post

                            I'm not sure of the correct language to use here - I think I do mean color shift and not color registration. If you print three rows of business cards onto a single 12in x 18in sheet - the bottom row is a different color than the middle row which is different from the top row.



                            We do run the Uniform Density Adjustment and it fixes the majority but not all of the issue. Even comparing top to bottom right after running it there's still a slight magenta hue to the top of the the sheet. Tech keeps telling me I should NEVER run the Uniform Density Adjustment because he says it messes up the Full Width Array but it's the only thing that helps at least a little bit with the problem and they haven't given me another solution. <shrugs>
                            "Tech keeps telling me I should NEVER run the Uniform Density Adjustment" That is a crazy thing to say. Drums shift over time/usage. One thing I have found is that is best to re-set the Uniform Density back to factory default, and also make sure the glass under the FWA is clean.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tngcas View Post

                              That's not encouraging to hear but very useful to know. Every salesperson swears their machine is better but I'd rather know what to expect - can you define what you mean by PM?
                              Depends on the click count, but generally new developer, new drums, replaced fuser rollers, new grids, etc.
                              To be clear, the cards aren't unsellable, but as an operator I can always see the color inconsistency from operator/machine side on a 12x18.

                              Comment

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