Iridesse color consistency issues...

[jkguinn]

We've had 2 Iridesse units for about 15 months now and have had ongoing color consistency issues on both (one more so than the other). Main problem is that we print a large number of business cards with a solid PMS549 backer for a customer. Color shifts within a run, from run to run and from day to day. Same file, same stock, same profile, etc. We can print the same file, 5 minutes apart and have 2 completely different colors printed. Xerox has sent in specialists, escalated multiple times to Level 3 engineering, and sent in countless techs to assess the problem. Things they have suggested: we're not using Xerox paper, humidity/environment, lack of operator training (especially insulting), and everything else they could think to blame it on, even saying that PMS549 was a "special color". Our Xerox technical guy swears it's a Fiery problem, but Xerox refuses to try another Fiery, stating cost concerns. We've even tried printing several different PMS color files (using the same stock and profiles) on consecutive days and it won't hit those colors consistently either. With enough operator intervention, we can get the color to hit, within an acceptable tolerance. I don't think we should be putting in that much work to make the machine print any particular color.
My question: is anyone else out there having ongoing color consistency issues with the Xerox Iridesse?

 

[jwheeler]

This doesn't address your Xerox color shifting specifically, but I would suggest the traditional method of printing masters/shells on an offset press using the PMS mixed ink, and just printing the variable fronts on the Xerox. The slight variances in the text on the front won't be as obvious as the big solid on the back. If you don't have offset, it would be worth outsourcing the shells as compared to all of this hassle and wasting of paper on the Xerox.

 

[kslight]

That’s the kind of runaround racket that helped turned me off Xerox, and yes they gave me all of the same excuses. Lord, no commercial print shop has ever in real life used “Xerox” paper right? Ask them for a sample case to try it, to shut them up. Hang up an external hygrometer to monitor the environment but…for me print problems have been worse with too low humidity (like when the heat is running) than right now…

I agree with the above post, have shells run if you can and that will probably solve the issue. If you have two machines that can’t consistently hit the color then I am guessing having a machine replaced or swapping parts out or changing the fiery is not going to fix it, likely a Xerox issue. I always fought color consistency on every Xerox machine I’ve ran, but I don’t run an Iridesse.

To save yourself some time, maybe it would be helpful to create a pattern neigjbor test print before you have to run the job, which will help guide the operator to the correct adjustments to get in tolerance without wasting a lot of paper.

 

[TJPrinter]

If it’s a Fiery and Xerox problem I doubt you’ll ever get the two of them to figure it out.

Not a solution but what happens if you send the job with CMYK values for the PMS instead of the Fiery converting? I had a job that used a heavy PMS on both sides and I couldn’t get the color the same on two sides when duplexing unless I converted the PMS to CMYK values before sending to the rip. This was on a Versant so not close to what you should be getting from the Iridesse.

 

[jkguinn]

This doesn't address your Xerox color shifting specifically, but I would suggest the traditional method of printing masters/shells on an offset press using the PMS mixed ink, and just printing the variable fronts on the Xerox. The slight variances in the text on the front won't be as obvious as the big solid on the back. If you don't have offset, it would be worth outsourcing the shells as compared to all of this hassle and wasting of paper on the Xerox.

Thanks! I presented this as an option to my Team last week as a workaround. Our current MIS/W2P system automatically gangs business card orders, some of which don't have the backer, so it's not an option at this time. We're signing with Print Shop Pro soon and this will most likely be the solution to the problem. I don't see Xerox or Fiery making any headway anytime soon. Probably going with Ricoh once the current lease is up...

 

[Make_It_So]

This doesn't address your Xerox color shifting specifically, but I would suggest the traditional method of printing masters/shells on an offset press using the PMS mixed ink, and just printing the variable fronts on the Xerox. The slight variances in the text on the front won't be as obvious as the big solid on the back. If you don't have offset, it would be worth outsourcing the shells as compared to all of this hassle and wasting of paper on the Xerox.

This is exactly how we operate here. Takes away a LOT of headache.

 

[pippip]

I can tell you now if I had TWO iridesse machines I wouldn't be taking no for an answer. With stupid answers like that from them I'd be giving serious answers back at them to the point of asking if their properly trained as they can't sort it.

At the end of the day, no matter what stock, profile, rip, machine, job etc. whether its the right colour or not is shouldn't be changing.

 

[jkguinn]

If it’s a Fiery and Xerox problem I doubt you’ll ever get the two of them to figure it out.

Not a solution but what happens if you send the job with CMYK values for the PMS instead of the Fiery converting? I had a job that used a heavy PMS on both sides and I couldn’t get the color the same on two sides when duplexing unless I converted the PMS to CMYK values before sending to the rip. This was on a Versant so not close to what you should be getting from the Iridesse.

Thanks for the feedback! I'll check with my production team to verify, but I think we've already tried that.

 

[jkguinn]

I can tell you now if I had TWO iridesse machines I wouldn't be taking no for an answer. With stupid answers like that from them I'd be giving serious answers back at them.

At the end of the day, no matter what stock, profile, rip, machine, job etc. whether its the right colour or not is shouldn't be changing.

I wholeheartedly agree. Since we are the print facility for a large hospital system and everything goes through VMO and purchasing, so I think we're stuck with the contract. That said, I don't know that legal and VMO would have much of a problem proving malfeasance on Xerox's part, I'm just not sure how much of a $hitstorm that would cause. I have already threatened Xerox with removing the machines altogether and putting Ricoh units in.

 

[Make_It_So]

I can tell you now if I had TWO iridesse machines I wouldn't be taking no for an answer. With stupid answers like that from them I'd be giving serious answers back at them to the point of asking if their properly trained as they can't sort it.

At the end of the day, no matter what stock, profile, rip, machine, job etc. whether its the right colour or not is shouldn't be changing.

The reaction they are getting from Xerox matches exactly my experience when I used to operate Xerox boxes years ago. Exceedingly frustrating I got one of my directors involved and that got the ball rolling and eventually the entire machine was replaced and wow what a difference the new machine made.

When dealing with Xerox, you need to be relentless and sometimes go above peoples heads to get things done.

 

[jkguinn]

This doesn't address your Xerox color shifting specifically, but I would suggest the traditional method of printing masters/shells on an offset press using the PMS mixed ink, and just printing the variable fronts on the Xerox. The slight variances in the text on the front won't be as obvious as the big solid on the back. If you don't have offset, it would be worth outsourcing the shells as compared to all of this hassle and wasting of paper on the Xerox.

We're actually phasing out offset, since almost all we print in that department is #10 envelopes. About 4,000,000 a year, mainly B&W. We installed the iJet 1175Pro and it's been fantastic! We're even able to run LH through it! In another 60 days, offset will be a thing of the past here.

 

[jkguinn]

The reaction they are getting from Xerox matches exactly my experience when I used to operate Xerox boxes years ago. Exceedingly frustrating I got one of my directors involved and that got the ball rolling and eventually the entire machine was replaced and wow what a difference the new machine made.

When dealing with Xerox, you need to be relentless and sometimes go above peoples heads to get things done.

If they don't replace or remove it, I'll find a workaround for this particular problem, but I can promise that there will NEVER be another Xerox unit in this shop!

 

[jwheeler]

We can have a sidebar conversation through DM's, but we've had Print Shop Pro for about 2 years now. I can give you some feedback before you pull the trigger if you'd like. Are you an inplant?

 

[azehnali]

ask the tech who in the area has an iridesse and have them print the file and see what result they get
two machines having the same exact issue is very odd

 

[Snowhugger]

I can relate to your troubles. My experience with Xerox Versant 180 and Canon V900 are similar. The Canon V900 I work with has color consistencey issues and I've heard those same answers from our sales rep.(paper, humidity/environment).

I agree with the jwheeler and kslight about printing shells on offset.

One thing I have noticed, every so called digital press has challenges printing big solids consistently. Streaks, Fades, Blotches, you name it I have seen it. And solutions are hard to find. I wish print designers knew this was an issue and would design digital print peices with patterns, images or something other than a big solids. Their work would look better and the printer's job would be easier. Instead we are caught in the middle between uneducated designers and digital press salespeeps promising the impossible.

 

[jkguinn]

We can have a sidebar conversation through DM's, but we've had Print Shop Pro for about 2 years now. I can give you some feedback before you pull the trigger if you'd like. Are you an inplant?

Actually have a contract to be signed any day now. Would appreciate some feedback. DM me.

 

[Make_It_So]

uneducated designers and digital press salespeeps promising the impossible.

The dynamic duo of teeth gnashing.

 

[jkguinn]

I can relate to your troubles. My experience with Xerox Versant 180 and Canon V900 are similar. The Canon V900 I work with has color consistencey issues and I've heard those same answers from our sales rep.(paper, humidity/environment).

I agree with the jwheeler and kslight about printing shells on offset.

One thing I have noticed, every so called digital press has challenges printing big solids consistently. Streaks, Fades, Blotches, you name it I have seen it. And solutions are hard to find. I wish print designers knew this was an issue and would design digital print peices with patterns, images or something other than a big solids. Their work would look better and the printer's job would be easier. Instead we are caught in the middle between uneducated designers and digital press salespeeps promising the impossible.

Yep. We currently outsource the larger runs to a large sheetfed printer, so having them run BC blanks won't be a issue and if it means less headache for my operator, I'm all for it. Just sucks that Xerox can't won't take any responsibility for the problem. They've actually told us that the machine and the Fiery are running perfectly, but then can't explain why we still have the problem...

 

[Shawnd]

Wonder if you could get it G7 certified, the Iridesse is listed as being capable.

https://www.idealliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/ADS-EFI-Xerox-EX-P-6-Fiery.pdf

Certified Digital Electrophotographic Press Systems - Idealliance

Idealliance Digital Electrophotographic Press Certification Program certifies the capabilities of commercial production electrophotographic devices to meet specific print standards. The program consists of testing and certification in areas of color, print properties and print production. The...

idealliance.org

 

[jkguinn]

Wonder if you could get it G7 certified, the Iridesse is listed as being capable.

https://www.idealliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/ADS-EFI-Xerox-EX-P-6-Fiery.pdf

Certified Digital Electrophotographic Press Systems - Idealliance

Idealliance Digital Electrophotographic Press Certification Program certifies the capabilities of commercial production electrophotographic devices to meet specific print standards. The program consists of testing and certification in areas of color, print properties and print production. The...

idealliance.org

Technically, I would say yes. With the issues we have, I would doubt that we could achieve adequate results.