Another Xerox 700 vs Konica 6501

[Joe Struntz]

We took test files and demoed the Xerox 700 vs Konica 6501.

The Xerox demo machine looked worn where the Konica looked new so not sure if service would help the results of the 700 but any solid color on the Xerox looked mottled didn't matter which stock.

The Konica print quality seemed better especially on blue solids didn't matter 12' c/1/s, 100# dull cover, 80# uncoated. The Konica tech had trouble registering a stack of our 100# dull cover from the tray but got it to print not sure if that is an issue or not.

Trying to decide my brother is sold on the Konica. I was leaning toward the 700 even though it was more money before the demo now not so sure. We have Xerox 4112 and getting rid of CLC4000. Konica is pushing the Creo Rip Xerox didn't care which rip we chose. We also have a Prinergy workflow for the pressroom.

Any input/advice would be much appreciated. I have read most of the recent threads on these 2 machines and called the references and the majority seems happy with the box they chose.

Thank you,
Al

 

[X33]

The Xerox demo machine looked worn where the Konica looked new so not sure if service would help the results of the 700 but any solid color on the Xerox looked mottled didn't matter which stock.

The mottled output makes me think that is probably one of the first units installed. There's a patch that came out a few months ago to address that problem.

 

[Craig]

One would think the tech would have taken care of that! Why in the world would a salesman allow you to demo on a machine that is not up to par? That's as stupid as test driving a car with a flat tire! It just emphasizes my point that many sales and techs can't tell a good print from a bad one, as long as the color is on the page, that's all that matters.

 

[X33]

yes, I agree. Wherever that unit is, it's sad that Xerox people are not taking care of that X700. It's suppose to impress customers, not scare them.

 

[Joe Struntz]

The unit was in Plymouth Meeting, PA and our salesman just responded to me that was one of the first units installed and needs a software upgrade. He wants to run our files on a newer customer box. He should get them to me tomorrow.

He must read this forum because he also mentioned toner availability would not be an issue.

Thanks for your help

 

[Craig]

He must read this forum because he also mentioned toner availability would not be an issue. Thanks for your help

Get it in writing with a solution if there is a back order. Don't take their word for it!

 

[printfreq]

i demo'd a konica 6501 as well. the print quality seemed to at least parallel the x700's, which is the machine we currently have in house. there are two main issues with the konica that was the deal breaker though.

the first issue was with the front to back registration and skew. even after coming back a second time for a second test, their tech still didn't have it dialed in. our x700 seemed to blow it away. thats not saying much considering its rarely within spec and often shifts an image all around the page during a print run. we can't even run brochures on it. the image shifts so bad that the panels are always off.

the second and most major issue was the fact that the fusers are not user replaceable. both the x700 and the 6501 have issues with having deletion lines present after running alot of one type of stock through the fuser. for instance, if we run more than 50, 11"x17" sheets through our fuser it is no longer possible to run 13"x19" paper through the machine using that same fuser. there will be a mark 1" from each side of the fuser. this is where the 11"x17" paper has apparently rubbed and damaged it.

the only fix is to use different fusers for different types of stock. we dedicate a fuser to 11"x17", 12"x18", and 13"x19" stock sizes being run and change them out accordingly. its a pain but its the only fix at this time. we have a stack of 4 new fusers sitting around at all times just in case an operator forgets to change one out.

that said, konica requires a tech to change the fuser out. we can't possibly call a tech to come out every time we switch between stocks. maybe this issue has been fixed since the last time i inquired konica about their machines.

one thing i will say about our experience with xerox and its x700 machine is that it has been a constant battle to get toner for it. the salesman you talked to was trying to save face in my opinion. not only have they made it extremely hard for us to order as much as we need to keep the machine running, their colors are often on nationwide back order. we have currently waited 11 days for yellow to arrive. we ordered it on oct. 21st. in the meantime, we have had to scramble to borrow toner from other printers around town. that just isn't right considering consumables are factored into the amount we are paying per click.

i've been told by both technicians and local reps that the x700 was oversold. i have also been told that they didn't anticipate the number of clicks their customers would be running. as a result, the manufacturer they are using simply can't keep up with the demand for toner. rumor has it that they may be bringing another plant online to ramp up toner production. that could totally be a rep blowing smoke to diffuse their current crisis. its hard telling. the bottom line is that we personally couldn't operate today because we didn't have yellow toner. how does xerox expect their customers to pay their lease if they can't produce work on their products!

knowing what i know today about this machine and all that comes along with it, i can safely tell you i wouldn't lease it. i would probably have a look at the canon imagerunner considering it will do the same sheet size and stock gsm rating. this is my personal experience and opinion however. you can take it for what its worth. you should find alot of information about the x700 on this forum however. most of the threads i've read concerning the x700 contain information that validates my experiences with the machine.

 

[printfreq]

Get it in writing with a solution if there is a back order. Don't take their word for it!

when toner is on back order you can see its status by logging into your xerox account. thats about the only evidence xerox will ever give you. whats worse is that when supplies are being ordered you have to specifically ask if a color is on back order. if you don't, the only way you find out is when you either check the status online or you actually don't get it with the rest of your colors.

 

[UberTech]

i demo'd a konica 6501 as well. the print quality seemed to at least parallel the x700's, which is the machine we currently have in house. there are two main issues with the konica that was the deal breaker though.

the first issue was with the front to back registration and skew. even after coming back a second time for a second test, their tech still didn't have it dialed in. our x700 seemed to blow it away. thats not saying much considering its rarely within spec and often shifts an image all around the page during a print run. we can't even run brochures on it. the image shifts so bad that the panels are always off.

This is disappointing, I know for a fact 6501 will destroy x700 with regards to registration. If they can't get it right they aren't particularly experienced so I would avoid them.

the second and most major issue was the fact that the fusers are not user replaceable. both the x700 and the 6501 have issues with having deletion lines present after running alot of one type of stock through the fuser. for instance, if we run more than 50, 11"x17" sheets through our fuser it is no longer possible to run 13"x19" paper through the machine using that same fuser. there will be a mark 1" from each side of the fuser. this is where the 11"x17" paper has apparently rubbed and damaged it.

Is this actually a problem? I mean, really? I have given a client an extra fuser, showed them how to change it and they have put it on the shelf and never used it again. The marks a hardly noticable and if you laminate not at all.

 

[gig0]

One thing I did notice is I have to turn on gloss mode on our 6501 for ex-Xerox clients.

 

[printfreq]

This is disappointing, I know for a fact 6501 will destroy x700 with regards to registration. If they can't get it right they aren't particularly experienced so I would avoid them.

Is this actually a problem? I mean, really? I have given a client an extra fuser, showed them how to change it and they have put it on the shelf and never used it again. The marks a hardly noticable and if you laminate not at all.

interesting. if the fusers can be changed out by the customer, then the problem is solved. good deal. i sure wish the konica guys here would have dialed in the machine better though in regard to the registration issue. their answer was that its "not an offset press."

 

[UberTech]

interesting. if the fusers can be changed out by the customer, then the problem is solved. good deal. i sure wish the konica guys here would have dialed in the machine better though in regard to the registration issue. their answer was that its "not an offset press."

This depends entirely on the service manager in your area. For ours, giving a customer a spare fuser and a little training (as it would be pretty difficult to screw something up) is worth it. It is pretty heavy so maybe they are worried about health and safety.

 

[printfreq]

this really makes me want to reconsider a konica as our second machine. i really need proof positive that the 6501 can at least match the registration that the x700 can do. it really seemed like a more solid machine. its high capacity feeder was leaps and bounds ahead of the x700's.

 

[UberTech]

Here is your problem really. I know the 6501 reg is good, but the people who are trying to sell you this are probably unaware of all the facets of the engine.

For example the tray alignment adjustment. This will digitally align the image on the sheet an accounts for paper shrinkage etc. Even if the machine was causing the skewing this adjustment can counter that. A bit time consuming for the n00b but worth the effort.

Depends what you consider way out I guess. Personally I give my customers the 'are you for real' look when they bitch about 1 crop mark out half a millimeter on one axis. This is in spec, infact all the crop marks out that much is in spec and when you have 3mm bleed half a millimeter is neither here nore there.

So go back, ask them to demostrate the tray adjustment (both sides adjust) and print the job to your likeing. Tell them there is no deal until someone can show you some competency. Would you buy a car that couldn't drive straight?

 

[Joe Struntz]

Xerox 700 updated test samples run on a new machine and they look a lot better. Still have the gloss look like our old Canon CLCs but not as bad or piled up toner.

Konica salesman didn't sound so sure about us changing the fuser rollers he has to get back to us.

Salesman speak on the Xerox 700 toner availability "it has been escalated and will not be an issue" Not sure I could rely on that but he promises he will get us toner.

I think if UberTech would be our tech we would go with the 6501 but at our demo they couldn't feed 100# dull cover reliably.

Still undecided we have to choose next week any input or words of wisdom would be much appreciated. I like the look of the photos on the Xerox 700 and the solids look better on the Konica 6501 does anyone else see the same?

Not looking at Canon's new box we learned the hard way with one of their machines first off the line....

Thanks again

 

[X33]

its high capacity feeder was leaps and bounds ahead of the x700's.

did KM did the drill about sitting on top of the trays?

I think both feeders, from KM and Xerox, do a great job.

The difference is how "sophisticated" they need to be. The KM feeders have a bunch of blowers, heaters, etc to achieve what they need. If you look at the Xerox feeders, they are much more simple in design and still as productive as others; it also translates in less parts and less chance of breakdowns. By the way, those feeders are used in the higher models like the DC5000AP, DC7002, DC8002.

 

[X33]

Konica salesman didn't sound so sure about us changing the fuser rollers he has to get back to us.

I've never seen KM doing that in the US; I think it's a liability issue that needs to be approved at a higher level.

Imagine that if a customer needs to remove some screws, and other stuff and by accident he cuts himself his finger. That's a tricky situation in the US.

On the Xerox 700, the fuser is lift up the old one, put down the new one. No tools required. Seconds vs Minutes.

 

[Craig]

did KM did the drill about sitting on top of the trays?

I think both feeders, from KM and Xerox, do a great job.

The difference is how "sophisticated" they need to be. The KM feeders have a bunch of blowers, heaters, etc to achieve what they need. If you look at the Xerox feeders, they are much more simple in design and still as productive as others; it also translates in less parts and less chance of breakdowns. By the way, those feeders are used in the higher models like the DC5000AP, DC7002, DC8002.

Don't brag too much about how great the feeders are, we have been experiencing quite a few doubles, unfortunately they go through the engine as doubles and print on top of one sheet and on the bottom of the other. It would be nice if there was some sort of double detection!

 

[Craig]

I've never seen KM doing that in the US; I think it's a liability issue that needs to be approved at a higher level.

Imagine that if a customer needs to remove some screws, and other stuff and by accident he cuts himself his finger. That's a tricky situation in the US.

On the Xerox 700, the fuser is lift up the old one, put down the new one. No tools required. Seconds vs Minutes.

What happens if I cut my finger when I remove a bad paper jam? I guess I sue Xerox???

 

[UberTech]

I've never seen KM doing that in the US; I think it's a liability issue that needs to be approved at a higher level.

Imagine that if a customer needs to remove some screws, and other stuff and by accident he cuts himself his finger. That's a tricky situation in the US.

On the Xerox 700, the fuser is lift up the old one, put down the new one. No tools required. Seconds vs Minutes.

They did release a "quick release kit" which consisted of one lever to release the fuser and undo two plugs. The fuser is significantly heavier than that found in an x700 so yeah, this would be a health and safety issue in the states.