Any suggestions for something after our J75?

[Haunts]

So we've had our Xerox J75 for about a year now but we're about to give up on it, the quality is not up to what we're after. Some of the problems that we keep on encountering are inconsistent colour, magenta not registering properly (we've had several engineers out changing various parts but now they just say that its a known issue and it isn't able to be fixed at the moment), registration and also the trapezoid are very frustrating. We're mainly a litho company but we stepped into the digital side last year, so we're still quite new to this. We're after quality more so than speed etc.

I'm wondering if anyone could suggest some production machines for us to look at or if you need any more info let me know? Do all toner based machines give a shine to the print even on uncoated, unlike litho where the finish is matt on an uncoated stock?

 

[ajr]

We have an Igen and they use Matt Toner, big step up though. Xerox should have something for you.

AjR

 

[Craig]

LMAO - That's a good one! Go from a $70,000 machine to a $700,000 machine!

 

[wonderings]

We are in a similar situation. We bought a J75 new about a year ago and have had nothing but problems. Inconsistent colour, SIQA tools not working correctly for alignment, uneven density across a page, etc etc etc. These were all things they promised would be great, upgrading from a DC260. We have had a frustrating time with Xerox the last 4 or 5 months trying to get these things resolved. There demo machines were doing the same thing, so we refused having a new J75 put in. We still have to finalize the deal, but we have on order a new Versant 2100. There seriously reduced the cost on this machine. A lot of the stock we run is just over the 300 gsm limit of the J75, that is probably part of our problem, but only a small part when compared with everything else. The Versant can handle up to 350 gsm, so our heavy stocks should be well within spec. Also the fuser is different, and from the tests and demos we did came out much much nicer. We had even and smooth colours and tints that we cannot get on our J75.

 

[Haunts]

We have an Igen and they use Matt Toner, big step up though. Xerox should have something for you.

AjR

Yeah the iGen is a bit much for what we're after.

We are in a similar situation. We bought a J75 new about a year ago and have had nothing but problems. Inconsistent colour, SIQA tools not working correctly for alignment, uneven density across a page, etc etc etc. These were all things they promised would be great, upgrading from a DC260. We have had a frustrating time with Xerox the last 4 or 5 months trying to get these things resolved. There demo machines were doing the same thing, so we refused having a new J75 put in. We still have to finalize the deal, but we have on order a new Versant 2100. There seriously reduced the cost on this machine. A lot of the stock we run is just over the 300 gsm limit of the J75, that is probably part of our problem, but only a small part when compared with everything else. The Versant can handle up to 350 gsm, so our heavy stocks should be well within spec. Also the fuser is different, and from the tests and demos we did came out much much nicer. We had even and smooth colours and tints that we cannot get on our J75.

All your problems are also what we're suffering with.

Is there anything similar from Konica or Richo?

 

[wonderings]

Yeah the iGen is a bit much for what we're after.



All your problems are also what we're suffering with.

Is there anything similar from Konica or Richo?

When we were fighting with Xerox we brought on of the problem files to another print shop here and had them print a few sheets off on our 14pt c/2/s stock. Printed smooth and even with no issues. Not sure what the model is of the Ricoh so that does not really help, could be comparing a top end machine to a mid range.

Konica and Ricoh do have compatible products. If you are looking at other brands you should get their sales people involved and schedule some demo times with the worst of the worst files you have.

 

[arossetti]

Really this just sounds like a shortfall of any sub $100k machine, or really any sub $200k. Digital is only litho quality when you get to the full production equipment. I don't know of any light to mid production machine that isn't going to have some degree of tailwhip in the registration and some degree of sheet to sheet color shift.

It would be the same with litho and expecting 8 sheet makeready and perfect registration on 4-color work using poly plates and an AB Dick.

 

[mazengh]

We went for the ricoh c7110. I can't tell much about it yet as the machine delivery is in may but exhibition samples were great. The machine can duplex 360gsm stock and can print clear and white toner. Also it can print banner size 34 x 70 cm

 

[Craig]

Much of the blame can be put on manufactures and sales monkeys who mislead buyers on what a machine can do. They will promise the world and just say "I never had that problem before". Unfortunately Arossetti is correct in his comparison. Offset shops will buy a little entry level box and expect it to produce the same quality as their Heidelberg, then talk trash about digital quality. Yet folks like me are taking away their jobs left and right, producing the same quality at a better price, with faster turnarounds. It takes more than a trained monkey to push the green button, a skilled operator MUST be able to make adjustments and tweaks, just like you do to a press to keep it running at optimal levels.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

I'm not entirely impressed with our machine either. Do you get the "trail edge flip" on 12 x 18" and 13 x 19" cover stocks? It's an elongated semi-circle like issue on the trail edge of the sheet, where the toner stops being fused to the sheet. Our tech talked about it like it was an engineering flaw, but this basically makes 1/3 of all 6 x 12" Postcards that I produce unsellable. Turning down the transfer percentage improves it, but at the loss of image quality. Having a very bad mottling issue currently that is "due to low humidity", but they have no claim as to what my recommended humidity level is in the CED!

 

[Milo Wilson]

Have the technicians tried doing a total registration setup on the machine yet? I had a similar problem on a 700i (an older J75) and after I did the total registration setup, it came out perfect. Does the inline densitometer not take care of the in to out density?

 

[Milo Wilson]

If you want quality with volume, then igen is the way to go. And the iGen 3 or 4 is not 700k. Get a good used iGen and have it installed correctly. I do training for iGens. Just installed an iGen 3 with inline calibration, that was used and quality is beautiful.

 

[ajr]

LMAO - That's a good one! Go from a $70,000 machine to a $700,000 machine!

We did! We now have 2!

 

[kdw75]

We did! We now have 2!

I am curious. Are you saying that there is a great improvement in color stability, quality, and registration, going from a Versant 2100 to an iGen? I was led to believe that the only real difference was the durability, and speed.

 

[ajr]

I am curious. Are you saying that there is a great improvement in color stability, quality, and registration, going from a Versant 2100 to an iGen? I was led to believe that the only real difference was the durability, and speed.

I dont know much about he Versant as it wasnt available when we brought our Igens. At the time we needed machines that could handle the volume and the turnaraound time.

 

[Haunts]

I'm not entirely impressed with our machine either. Do you get the "trail edge flip" on 12 x 18" and 13 x 19" cover stocks? It's an elongated semi-circle like issue on the trail edge of the sheet, where the toner stops being fused to the sheet. Our tech talked about it like it was an engineering flaw, but this basically makes 1/3 of all 6 x 12" Postcards that I produce unsellable. Turning down the transfer percentage improves it, but at the loss of image quality. Having a very bad mottling issue currently that is "due to low humidity", but they have no claim as to what my recommended humidity level is in the CED!

We have had issues with the toner not fusing, we were told to try Xerox own paper which didn't fix the issue, then we checked humidity which was fine, we changed the fusing unit and then we were told that it must be the files ink coverage, lol. We ended up just running the job and pulling out the bad sheets because it wasn't on every sheet.

Have the technicians tried doing a total registration setup on the machine yet? I had a similar problem on a 700i (an older J75) and after I did the total registration setup, it came out perfect. Does the inline densitometer not take care of the in to out density?

I don't think they have done a total registration setup, the issue we have is with the magenta but it only happens half way across the sheet. Do you think this could solve it?

 

[arossetti]

I am curious. Are you saying that there is a great improvement in color stability, quality, and registration, going from a Versant 2100 to an iGen? I was led to believe that the only real difference was the durability, and speed.

That would be incorrect. The iGen does not have drums or traditional developer. Your best prints with any other xerox box will come with fresh developer, fresh developer housings and fresh drums. After those HSFI's hit 50% of their life the quality will start to degrade. The Versant will do things to try and keep the image quality stable by compensating but it isn't a perfect world.

The iGen also looks for streaking in the print and when it sees it and fills the streak, something the Versant does not actively do. I'd suggest watching some of these videos to get a better understanding. It isn't till you open up an iGen that you realize it is nothing like any other Xerox printer.

The banter in these videos reminds me of a bad "This old House" episode but Scott Stevenson in real life is hilarious.
https://youtu.be/O6C5dC2blzk
https://youtu.be/VIMQoPEJkGg

 

[kdw75]

Oh how I wish that our Versant 2100 could use it's FWA to monitor the color for shifts, and automatically re-calibrate when it detects a change.