Azura plates run length issues

[Motoxslow]

Hello everyone. I am just wondering if we are the only shop (AGFA tells us we are) that is having issues with the Azura plates breaking down on press after several thousand impressions. We have been running the plates for several years now and the problem tends to come and go. Most of the time it is the black or cyan plate, depending on the amount of coverage and the stock we are using. Agfa has adjusted the lazer strength and checked out our plate writer several times but the problem never really goes away.

We are about done with the Agfa plates and considering going back to processing plates again.

Anyone else having run length issues?

Thanks in advance,

David

 

[Green Printer]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

Does this problem occur on only 1 press or on varies presses.

 

[Motoxslow]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

It seems to be isolated to our MAN 300. Been all over the packing, blankets, roller preasure, roller side play, even had outside service check it out. No problem found with the press. Press prints fantastic and does not break down the image using other manufactures plates.

We only have the 29" MAN, Heide PM52 and a Heide QM.

 

[Green Printer]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

Are the same inks, fountain solutions and washup chemistry used on all 3 presses?

 

[ErnieLail]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

We run 100K impressions on our 80's model 40" Hberg with azura before break down. Did you guys do a "drop test" on the plates? Agfa sent a plate specialist in, we imaged a plate with 2x 2" blocks of screens. Then applied a drop of any chemical the plate comes in contact with on press to an individual square. Then just wait and see if the emultion breaks down (timed). You can create a few square for one specific chemical and apply in 5 minute intervals to determine how quickly the chemical effects the plate.

Also ran into that happening like you say on the ryobi 3302, but no problems on the other presses. We had figured out that the operator was scrubbing the plates too hard. Once we change operators the problem disappeared. Its important to explain to the operators that the emultion isnt as hard as conventional plates.

Im with Pat, if you find the variable between the other presses you will find the problem. Maybe chemical... maybe operator.

Edited by: Ernie on Aug 5, 2008 7:26 AM

 

[beermonster]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

actually this issue has just cropped up with us

having said that it it restricted <so far> to one komori press - the same press that told me there were "scratches" down the plates - which there weren't - turned out to be something on the press - which makes me suspicious about this latest accusation.

this problem is wierd - we've only had it happen on solid areas with ice inks

we ran a job 2 weeks ago - simple 4 col job, and 2 of the 4 ran the entire 360k length. go figure. other 2 did just over 100k each - which is spot on really.

 

[papamoose]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

Hi
We had similar problems on our SM52 press (albeit with Kodak TD plates). It turned out to be and increased amount of calcium in the paper building up on the blankets. We changed to a different fount which pretty much cured the problem. We also had problems on a B2 press with a contaminated batch of fount - then the plate went hyper sensitive whilst the stack was being changed. As usual Prepress were blamed for both problems until we could prove it wasn't us!

 

[ErnieLail]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

"As usual Prepress were blamed for both problems until we could prove it wasn't us!"

lol, thats the story of my life.

 

[papamoose]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

It the getting blamed for the wrong stock used on the press gets me - yes it has happened!

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

Are we talking first and/or second plate? Is it on first and/or second side?
We normally print anything up to 150k without problems (don't often have larger print runs, think once or twice needed new setts, but don't remember how long run that was)
The only issue we ever had in 3 years that could be sort of plate related was we had dots get a halo during dry time in a work and turn. This was most apparent in the 0-5% raster getting unnatural high dot gain.

I would suspect stock, ink or powder reacting. Remember differnt inks can behave differently. And the chemistry is differnt (even if subtly) between first second and third inks etc.

I would be documenting all the circumstances. Stock, side, colour, raster etc if second side then it would be interesting to know what powder from first side was.


PS one more thing:
We had some issue with the last plate getting oxidated from the plate casette. Today I allways leave the plastic protective shhet and one paper slip sheet after the last plate so that the surface is flat.

Edited by: Lukas Engqvist on Aug 5, 2008 9:35 AM

 

[Motoxslow]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

Same inks and wash-up solutions, different fountain solutions. We have tried a few others with the same results. It happens most often on the black unit as we run black down first. Cyan also breaks down, especially if there is lots of ink coverage. It also happens on the first side down of the printed sheet, so press powder is not the issue. All of the plates show a degradation of the emulsion on the color bar after a long run but only the first two colors break down to the point of needing to be replaced.

 

[kansasquaker]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

About a year and a half ago, we had the similar problems with Azura. At that time, we were the only shop who had ever had the problem too - imagine that! The solution for us was simple. We switched to Fuji LHP-J plates and haven't looked back since.

 

[ErnieLail]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

So you've tried the fountain solution used on your other presses? Do your other presses show any degradation on the color bars? Just curious, are you using quick release blankets on your presses? Not sure if that could cause that, just thinking out loud.

My pressman told me that they had to stop using some of the chemicals they used to wash the plates up with. Now they use roller wash to clean the plates and nothing else.

Edited by: Ernie on Aug 5, 2008 1:08 PM

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

> {quote:title=Motoxslow wrote:}{quote}
> Same inks and wash-up solutions, different fountain solutions. We have tried a few others with the same results. It happens most often on the black unit as we run black down first. Cyan also breaks down, especially if there is lots of ink coverage. It also happens on the first side down of the printed sheet, so press powder is not the issue. All of the plates show a degradation of the emulsion on the color bar after a long run but only the first two colors break down to the point of needing to be replaced.

The blankets and the (excuse my free translations from swedish) pressure of the rollers are the same as in the other units? It would either be a chemical break down or a physical (abrasive).
We had (before switching to azura, while running film and fuji plates) problems with our yellow… it was the pressure of the rollers, I'm not a orinter but prepress so don't have all the terminology. But it was some roller that was not right.

Another thing that comes to mind is that if the paper is hindered from moving there would be some abbrasive wear, but that would also giva a smeared dot, so it should be easy to rule out.

As I write I also want to ask about your printing environment. Is there a temperature difference between units?

Finally do you do spot checks on the humidity of your paper stock? A dry paper would be harsh on the first unit and be more stable as it reaches normal humidity.

 

[John Zarwan]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

While not common, neither is it unusual. You are not alone, and there is nothing to be done, so far as I know. In a paper that I did two years ago, I spoke to a number of printers who had each of the four major types of so-called chemistry free plates to discuss their experiences - plus and minus - and ascertain how they dealt with the various issues of each, or whether it was a concern. A number had this problem with the Azura. As I understand it, it's a function of the way the plate is made. Again, it is not common, but neither is it rare.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

I would disagree, not unless you can see a pattern. If there is a regularity to the first plate needing to be redone it cannot be the Azura alone. If it was why did not all plates behave the same. Too often have we had printers blaming the plate when the fault has been in the press, chemistry or stock.
It is allways easy to blame the new kid on the block, and people will believe you because "it never happened before"… only usually if you dig deep enough in most cases it did happen before but no one documented it.
By all means test whatever you like only if you want to know who done it only change one thing at a time, else you may be blaming the good guy.

 

[Green Printer]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

Do the black and blue units have any ink buildup on the blanket or plate and or build up on the metering roller.
If so does it feel thick or kind of chalky or gritty.

 

[plaehn]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

I too would consider this to be a problem in the press. When it's constantly the same plates wearing out i can't see how it's prepress related. You could try switching the cyan and magenta in the press to see if the magenta breaks down when it's in the unit usually running the cyan plate. If that happens you have isolated the problem to the first two units.

 

[Bravo]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

Completely agree - problem is press related.
We had same problems with one of our Azura customers on MOffset machines - with first two sections.
But the first thing we heard was "take away that bad Azura!" ))
We spend two weeks for experiments and exploration - from ctp and plates to press and on-press chemistry.
Finally, there was two problems exactly on press! Non-suitable chemistry (very aggressive for any kind of plates) and some problems with press tuning.
After resolving - presses works better than before and longest runlength without problems was about 90 000.
Buy the way - that was just a coincidence - they switched to aggressive chemistry on a press exactly a week before installation, just because they started to print using inks, acceptable for food and did not print more than 10-15 000.

On the other hand production side with three "Planeta Variant" (about 20-25 years old) prints more than 100 000 with Azura on a regular basis without any problems.

Edited by: Bravo on Aug 6, 2008 11:18 AM

 

[Avisciciulli]

Re: Azura plates run length issues

Did they check bearer pressure? You'd be surprised at how many technicians I've seen who don't think to even check it, just because they don't want to be responsible for setting it.

From what I read into it, the first two plates are experiencing it, so if we think about this simply, we're probably not dealing with a plate issue, or else it would be all of them.

Since it's two units, it's somewhat unlikely that it's mechanical, as they are both having the same problem, unless there is some common drivetrain for just those units or something like that.

If it was chemistry and ink as it relates to the plate, I'd think all units would exhibit this behavior. Thinking out loud, are those units running higher amounts of water for the job than the other units, given similar coverage? If so, maybe a fountain chemical is beating up the emulsion really bad.

I liked the idea of the paper. Most pressmen never think of it as being an issue, when the reality is that there's more variability in that material than nearly any other. I don't think you mentioned it, but does this come up with every paper type, or only certain ones? Mill differences? coatings? Start documenting.

Having worked in a relatively busy shop the last few years, with no employee turnover in the pressroom has taught me a few things. Largely, that press operators don't expect or even want to learn new things, or change what they've been doing. It's asinine to think that a new plate can come in and you won't have to change a few of the dozens of variables you have when running a press. That's why we call them variables, it's so that they can be CHANGED.