Canon 7000

[Craig]

Re: Canon 7000

JFortune said: "would be very careful about many of the reliability claims made on this
site - it appears that Xerox sales reps are trying to post fraudulent
information since they are extremely intimidated by the Canon's ability
to:

Duplex 13 x 19.2" media on up to 15pt chrome coat
Polymerized ink which doesn't require fuser oil like production Xerox
equipment (it is near impossible to UV coat or laminate output off
Xerox)
The Canon uses a guide plate like a press to achieve registration front to back less than 1mm. Xerox is all over the place.

Canon would not of won this award if they didn't have a superior product"

I am NOT a Xerox sales rep but a past Canon customer for the last 12 years starting with the CLC350, CLC700, CLC1180, 2 - CLC4000's, IRC3200, IR5000 to name a few.
I HAVE had to deal with the lack of support from Canon USA all the way up to what sounds like your boss Janet Cain!
I HAVE had a CLC4000 sitting idle for weeks because Canon couldn't make it run.
I HAVE had Canon tell me that the only fix for the CLC4000 is the ImagePress 7000!
I HAVE had Janet Cain look me in the face and tell me that the 7000 will NOT have the issues like others are posting here.
I HAVE made the lease payments on equipment that was only productive 70% of the time.
I HAVE had to explain to my customers why colors were not constant on the same page.
I HAVE had to fight with Canon Financial to get a BACK a negotiated buy-out after they found out I signed with Xerox.

Now as for your claims on the "fraudulent
information" .
It not nearly impossible to UV coat or Laminate output from Xerox equipment, it's done everyday.
My DC8000AP will duplex 12.6 x 19.2 Media up to and including 300 GSM all day long (Faster than the ImagePress too).
My DC8000AP (Which was introduced long before the ImagePress as the DC8000) uses a register guide plate to achieve +or- .5mm front to back registration (published in CED).

I am sure the ImagePress will be a very fine piece of equipment once they get things worked out. I almost took their advice and replaced my CLC4000 with one. But I DID the 6 months of research and found that the grass was greener on the other side of the fence, at least for me!

I don't think this post or any post should turn into a pi$$ing match, but one should be able to let others know what their experiences with machines or companies were!

 

[rcreveli]

Re: Canon 7000

Not to feed the trolls but,

I am not a Xerox Shill as I only have a Doc 12 and a Konica Bizhub Pro 6500. I grew up in the CLC family. We ran the 500,700,1100, 1000 & 5000 at my previous job. My experience makes me believe both the good and bad that people are reporting. I can tell you that I had conversations with Canon on my 1000 & 5000 that went like this.

Me: On my job for CompUsa the color shifted from red to orange.
Tech: Yup
Me: Are you going to fix it?
Tech: this machine was built for speed not color accuracy. Maybe you should run this 5000K job on your 1100(Implied statement)
This was a regular conversation for 3 years

I think anyone who lived through the 1000 series in Color and the IR 600 with it's 3hole tearing issue has good reason to be wary of Canon's promises.

That being said I have been burned by Xerox for other reasons and by KM for still others but, the most crippling experience to our business was with Canon Color so I tell everyone I know in the industry to be very cautious or avoid Canon altogether. That is an image problem that the 7000 doesn't seem to be fixing.

Ray

 

[Craig]

Re: Canon 7000

The sad thing is, I liked the ImagePress 7000, I had to run several jobs on the demo unit at my dealers office when my CLC400 was down. It did a fine job on those runs, I just didn't feel comfortable with the promises Canon USA was making, they made it sound like everything was going to be sunshine and happy days with the 7000.

Every manufacture has problems, it's a fact of life, but some seem to handle them better than others.

 

[JRV]

Re: Canon 7000

There is no way that this machine will reliably duplex 15pt. stock. The specification states 300gsm, and if you know paper you know that this usually equates to around 12pt. I'm sure that you can find a 300gsm stock that is 15pt thick somewhere, but that is extremely rare. The fact is, the machine is not designed to do this.

And to the user group: anyone with experience in this industry knows not to place a whole lot of stock in these "awards" like the ON DEMAND one. These are more often than not just PR gestures. The real test of any product is customer satisfaction.

 

[JRV]

Re: Canon 7000

Eric, I'm confused by your thought process. I assume since you had a NexPress you were running quite a bit of volume, and I'm sure you knew the limitations of the Canon before you bought it. If you are exceeding the volume that the machine is designed to run, why are you dissatisfied?

 

[Dave Lambert]

Re: Canon 7000

Just a quick update on our Canon C7000 experience. We've now had it for 1 1/2 months. We've run 340,000 imps on it, using every kind of stock imaginable. One challenge we've had is finding a card stock that we could image and fold without it cracking on the fold...yes we found the stock. We've had two service calls on the system. One was fixed with a firmware update, the system was locking up on clearing jams. The other was our fault, that resulted in paper dust or trimmings contaminating the printer. It had to be vacuumed clean, and we now vacuum all edges of the stock after cutting it and have had no further problems.

Our C7000 is installed in the same production room as our IBM 4000's and Kodak Digimasters, it is a very clean and climate controlled room, perhaps this has helped us avoid the issues others are experiencing? We've had no copy quality issues what so ever, page 1 is the same as page 10,000. We've run the full gambit of applications, from standard postcards to full variable dynamic financial statements. We used both PDF's and postscript as our input streams.

We are still learning how to deal with some of the input file we are given to image, but this is just learning how to deal with color management, so far there has been nothing that we have not been able to overcome.

I would still recommend this to anyone who asked.

 

[rcreveli]

Re: Canon 7000

Dave,

You may want to look at a Morgana Creaser. We just picked up a used on and it does an excellent job of minimizing or eliminating cracking on pretty much every stock, with or against the grain. It also sets up a lot faster than any scorer that I have ever used and handles 9 creases in line. We are using it today on a press job that will run through our duplo. The paper is 80# Blue Linen Cover that has been Double Bumped with silver and is folding against the grain. on a run of 3000 we lost 2. The duplo will most likely eat 2 or 3 more. It really helps our waste.

Ray

FYI Not only do I not work for Morgana. I was adamantly opposed to this device until we tried the technology with our perfect binder. I then made a complete 180.

 

[JRV]

Re: Canon 7000

You should also look at the Duplo DC-645 slitter/cutter/creaser. Great machine.

And no, I don't work for Duplo.

 

[color me blind]

Re: Canon 7000

What stock have you found that does not crack?????

Please share

 

[Dave Lambert]

Re: Canon 7000

Sure I'll share, that's what this forum is all about. The cover stock we've discovered that doesn't crack is: Invercote Creato Cover 10.2 pt. and it's FSC as well.

 

[color me blind]

Re: Canon 7000

Thanks so much for the info. I will get some samples and give it a try

 

[mario cantalupo]

Re: Canon 7000

I am a New entry and I live in Italy, sorry for my bad English

Canon Italy, troughs is resellers, give me a demo ImagePress C6000 for free for 3 month, the only cost are the click (impressions)
I am a Xerox customers, with 2 DC250
I was impress in the beginning for quality and the stability, we print in 2 month 200.000 image (large size)
This printer when goes is perfect, the problem is that every 2/3 days I have to call the assistance, I had so many problem, not with the quality, but with the error code
I use the printer always with full and deep color, I work for the automotive market, and I need stability and quality
When I go to my office in the morning I am afraid that the printer does not start
Every time the canon technician come (I think I have to get a bed in my office for them) the printer start again, and I think positive hoping that for one week I do not see them again
But this is an illusion, after 2/3 days I have to call the assistance again
I discover another big problem with this printer, canon told me that is not possible to fix, I do not know if you have the some
The problem is when I print a booklet with the cover with heavy paper and inside pages light paper
Every time the printer switch between the two different paper stop for 3/4 minutes adjusting the fuser temperature
This means that if I have to print 20 booklet will take almost one hour
This is for me a big big problem, the escamotage is to cheat the printer telling that the paper is the some weigh
Now the 3 month demo are expired and I told canon that I need 2 month more to decide, but if something does not change I thing I will give back the printer

The problem, is what kind of printer to purchase ?

Actually I am attach to the quality of this printer, because I save almost 40,000 dollar of external printing (typography)
For 3 month (when the printer goes) I print the most part of my work inside the company,

What about the OCE CS650 Pro, someone of you can tell me experience about this printer

 

[Craig]

Re: Canon 7000

Hi Mario,
Since you are happy with the quality of the print why not look at the Kodak M700 it's the re-skinned Canon ImagePress 7000. I would be more confident in their service and support over Canon.

Also since you are a Xerox customer take a look at the DC5000AP, 7000AP and 8000AP. As you may have read I own the 8000AP and am Very pleased with the LACK of service needed to keep it running. I have gone from Canon service of several times a week to once a month.

Good Luck!

 

[mario cantalupo]

Re: Canon 7000

Actually the service of canon People in Italy is perfect, they come as soon I call them
I do not complain for canon service, but for printer it self

I call them this morning and they come after 2 hour and fixed the small problem, with the finisher

Now I will wait until September, I ask to have 45 days more to try the printer, and they agree

So, in September I will decide what to do

You have also a Canon C7000 printer '

Are you satisfied


Mario

 

[Craig]

Re: Canon 7000

You are correct on the service technicians, whenever I called they were here within a few hours, but what I am referring to is the support from Canon, they send their machines out saying they can do this and that, and force the service technicians to do the field repairs to make it work. Then when you find your equipment down for several days, their response is oh well?? There is no reason why you should have a tech. at your shop so often that they need a time card. You should expect nothing less total satisfaction from Canon or any other company, after all you are paying a lot of money for these machines.

As for your question on the machine I own, it is a Xerox DocuColor 8000AP. This is after owning 7 Canon boxes and being a customer for 14 years. I will never look back and am very happy with Xerox.

Another machine that was introduced is Ricoh C900 (I think that's the model) it is 90 ppm. OCE has some nice equipment too.

 

[DigitalPrintGurl]

Re: Canon 7000

When posting concerns and issues regarding the Canon imagePRESS 7000, it would be helpful to mention who you are actually receiving service from. I know for a fact that there have been many clients that have the 7000 through CBS that are having major service issues. Perhaps you should look at IKON.

IKON has multiple successful placements of the 7000 series and 80% of the placements are new accounts meaning they had previously been with CBS, Xerox or Gordon Flesch. I recommend contacting IKON, they can take over the service and trust me this would not be the first time.

 

[Craig]

Re: Canon 7000

At least your not biased Jeannie

I did just have a conversation from our old Tech from one of the named companies in Jeannie's post who said that they had a meeting with Canon who said that most of the issues with the 7000 is due to bad service in the field.

 

[X33]

Re: Canon 7000

In their brochures, all the machines say they can perform at high volumes. Reality is different.

Remember that the Canon 7000 is Canon's first attemp to get in the Digital Production Color market. It's release to the market was delayed more than a year.

 

[Neal Anderson]

Mario,
In regards to your speed issue on pulling different weight stocks for a booklet, there is another fix, or work-around. Print all your covers first. Next print your interior pages, as a booklet and pull your covers from the inserter trays that are on the finisher. This allows the heavier stock to bypass the fixers. The slow down you're experiencing is due to the fixers having to heat up and cool down for the different weight stocks. I've successfully done this multiple times for a customer we have. It increased our speed by almost 9 times! You may have to use the mailbox feature to print the inside pages and pull the covers from the inserter trays.

We've had our ImagePress since June 16, and now have approx. 670,000 clicks on it. We've had our problems (Known Yellow developer issue, as well as ITB belt needing to be replaced more frequently than service spec.). We've had good color consistency. We calibrate at least twice a day and take delta readings after every cal. So far, we have maintained a maximum of 1.5 - 1.75 dE variance. Our only color complaint would be that the ImagePress tends to fill-in, in the three quarter tones.

We've been a little frustrated by the amount of down time that is required for preventative maintenance visits, by our local Canon service. However, since Canon has not yet rolled out their Key-Op. Service program yet, we have begun training through our local Canon Service Technician to train me on some of the Preventative Maintenance items. We were told that all the Yellow screws, indicated Key-Operator Serviceable items. So far, this has gone very well.

 

[Craig]

I for the life of me can't understand why it takes these companies to get their ORC or Key-op programs up and running. They (not just Canon, but others too) build and market these boxes with ORC components yet take a year to get the program figured out! How hard can it be since the machines were engineered with them from the beginning.

If it needs a web, you have one on the shelf and put it in, call for a new one to replace the one you just put in. WOW I just figured it out for them!!!

I have the same issue with a Ricoh MP9000, almost 3 years and nothing official on ORC's but the field supervisor has me trained (took 20 minutes after cutting through all the BS). I finally got Pi$$ed when a cleaning web needed changed and had to wait 2 hours for service and the tech shows up and said "Oh, this is suppose to be replaced by you anyway" and it took him 5 minutes, and he left.

If you complain and tell your salesperson that one of the main reasons you bought this piece of crap was for ORC's and you are tired of waiting for service for something that is field replaceable, and you will start short paying your click charges based on the down time it takes for service to fix something when it's an ORC. They will usually show you what to do.

I can't stand unnecessary down time.