Decent IGEN replacement

I think everyone left out the best machine on the market, which is the Ricoh C900 Color Production System. Printing at 90 pages a minute on text or 110 cover your jobs will get out faster and the quality is superior, plus you have replaceable TRCU units that can be replaced by your own operator and have the machine back up and running in 10-20 minutes.
This is by far the best machine on the market.
SRP $117,500
You could buy two C900 for the price of a Canon 70 or four for the price of the IGen
In the printing business it is best to have redundancy so you are never down.

It would be nice if this remained a forum and not a sales pitch. The 'best machine on the market' is a very loaded statement, as everyone's needs differ. I'm also interested to know how you are substantiating the claim that the output quality is superior. The samples shown at Graph Expo 08 were underwhelming.

It would also have been nice if you mentioned perfecting/autoduplexing on the Ricoh box is only up to 80# cover weight. So when you want to duplex that 110# cover, it looks like you'll be stopping the press and manually flipping the sheets over to run through again. Good luck with registration on that. Oh, I also wish I didn't have to buy additional paper decks to run heavier stocks. Why can't a user put stocks in whatever tray they want?

Also, the TCRU units is not a market differientiator. Both Canon and Kodak offer this with their equipment.

:)
 
Igen replacement

Igen replacement

If you are looking to replace an Igen and your volume is still low, no matter which press you look at, your cost is going to be high. Your best solution is to look at used HP Indigo, good printquality and Used presses can be bought starting at $20,000 for a five year old machine..
 
Another Option to Research

Another Option to Research

No one has mentioned the MGI Meteor DP60. It has very good color and offset press-like feed and delivery tables. You can add an envelope feeder as well. It has a card making option for hotel key cards, gift cards, etc. Base unit new is around 200K. Has a banner feed up to 47" too. Prints on paper or plastics by preheating material, so you can run a wide array of stocks. Duplexes, VDP capable and has up to 13"X19" format.
One disclaimer, I do sell them in my current position, but this is just information for you to compare as you do your due diligence. The company is based in France, but has offices/demo center in Florida. It is not a bad price point for what is does, though it may not fit your situation.
 
if you are considering another press other than iGen - you need to ensure the 12pt can run and at a speed that can support the turn time required. Given the format size mentioned you might have been able to get more of the images on the larger iGen sheet size. If you run on an altertnative press the sheet size capability is smaller and you would have to run more sheets (increasing the cost of the job)

I am confident I can help you achieve what you are trying to accomplish.

Please call Joe Finan at 703-492-85918
 
Igen Replacement at 80-100 thousand clicks per month

Igen Replacement at 80-100 thousand clicks per month

I am a person who has changed from Xerox (2045) to Cannon C6000. I have recently installed the Cannon Imagepress C6000 (I still have a Xerox 250). The Cannon 6000 is basically the same as Imagepress 7000, just slightly slower.
Having been a xerox guy for a long time I was very nervous. But after having the Cannon for a while now, I am extremely impressed with the Cannon quality. I considered the Xerox 5000, Xerox 700.
One of the problems with the Xerox 5000, 7000 and 8000 are that they use fuser oil. this can be an issue if you are going to print book covers. Fuser oil will prevent book covers from allowing spine to be glued.
Also, Xerox machines are only 12.6 x 19.2 while the Cannon is the full 13 x 19.2. This actually makes a difference when printing 6" x ??" post cards with bleeds.
One of the best things about the Cannon vs. the Xerox is the dual fuser in the Cannon. This dual fuser means that the Cannon machine does not slow down nearly as much on full size heavy cover stocks as the Xerox needs to. Measuring speed of machines is VERY arcane. What we commercial printers really need to know is: "What is the speed at 13" x 19" 300gms Duplex? That is what you end up printing so much of anyway.
The biggest problem with Xerox is their Fuser Technology. That is always what seems to run into so much maintenance.
As a strategy, I think that it is a very good to think about starting with 1 machine and then planning ahead so that it makes sense to duplicate that very specific machine rather than upgrading to an Igen for example. Having multiples of the same machine is FAR more productive than a single machine that runs twice as fast.
I think that the good/bad news thinking on looking forward to an Igen, is that I doubt that there are many installations that are very profitable with only 1 Igen. If you only have one Igen, you are probably in a difficult financial situation. But if you can get up to where you need 2 Igens, you are probably doing fairly well. But you had better keep that volume going. If volume ever slacks off, you could be in a world of hurt.
 
The original question was "Decent IGEN replacement" and that The business does anywhere between 60,000 to 100,000 color clicks (oversized) per month.
This is a perfect machine for what he wants to print and up to 13x19 sheets

I am glad that you are a Ricoh equipment owner and I Appreciate your reply but the MP900 is a copy machine from 2006 and is not even close to the PPBG C900 Color Production System. All Ricoh PPBG machines are now driven by the Hitachi engine and the engine has a similar design to the IBM 4100 Hitachi engine. The Hitachi engine in the C900 weighs close to 1500 lbs. with new inline production finishing equipment for Perfect Binding, Saddle Stitching with a flat spine option just like Perfect Binding GBC Ring punching and Ring binding. it also has a high capacity stacker with large capacity trays for 11,000 sheets with Air-Assist feed mechanism which blows air between individual sheets to counter act static cling and eliminate multi feeds. You can print on 110lb cover stock 2 sided with perfect registration.

You are able to change hardware component parts/TCRU units (Trained Customer Replaceable Units)
With a simple Training program you can replace
Fusuer
Drums
Charger Unit/ Corona wires
Imagining Transfer unit/Special Training Only
You also have easy toner replacement while the machine is running and you are able to change out Change Developer in 20-30 minutes as part of the TCRU process.

You have the ES-1000 and Color Wise Pro tools with ICC color profiles for easy calibration and 1200x 1200 dpi color and intelligent spot color.
You also get imposition software with EFI impose
(Optional) Cover Interposer
(Optional) You can get (2) 5,000 unit high capacity stackers
(Optional) You also have the option of the Fiery Central software that will manage all the pre-flight of all your files.

Maybe it is time you upgrade your Ricoh machine.
 
Pro Digital Solutions,

Perhaps you could give us some reference sites so we can confirm the performance of this machine. This thread http://printplanet.com/forums/digital-printing-discussion/16343-what-machine-do-you-own has a break down of machines used by users. No one has mentioned c900 yet so we can only go by what you are telling us.

Drupa feedback was not good as were demos from users so we need you to back up your claims with some hard evidence.
 
Km 6501

Km 6501

Hi there,

I would be happy to talk further if you have a minute. We as a company deal with production equipment which would work with your spec. Please call or email James on 07967213788 or email [email protected][


QUOTE=raminmd;103555]Hi all,

This is a question that I have been grappling with for sometime now. I have spent a lot of time going through the forums but am not any closer. I am hoping you guys can help me. I recently bought the book of business from an existing business.

The business does anywhere between 60,000 to 100,000 color clicks (oversized) per month. Most of them are on 11 x 17 or 12 x 18 sheets. About 99% of everything printed is oversized. For 2008, they probably averaged around 80,000 color oversize clicks per month. Everything was printed on the IGEN. However, they had major difficulties keeping the IGEN busy. It was costing them way too much in lease, electricity etc. and their volumes were too low for the IGEN.

I need to get a replacement for the IGEN to run all the prints on. Almost all of it is flyers (8.5 x 11) or postcards (5.5 x 8.5, 4.25 x 5.5 etc.). Most of it is printed on 12 point oversized stock duplex and then cut down into the desired sizes. Quality is definitely important.

For my volumes, stocks and use which press is the better option - Imagepress or the KM 6500. From what I read, the quality for both the Canon and KM is extremely good. I ran some samples on the Canon and really liked the quality. I have not looked at depth at a KM yet. I heard that KM is not very good at front to back registration and cannot duplex 12 pt. stock. Is my understanding right? Is Canon my best bet between the two? Are there other presses in the same price range as the Canon or the KM that I can consider?

Thanks for any help.[/QUOTE]
 
I am a person who has changed from Xerox (2045) to Cannon C6000. I have recently installed the Cannon Imagepress C6000 (I still have a Xerox 250). The Cannon 6000 is basically the same as Imagepress 7000, just slightly slower.
Having been a xerox guy for a long time I was very nervous. But after having the Cannon for a while now, I am extremely impressed with the Cannon quality. I considered the Xerox 5000, Xerox 700.
One of the problems with the Xerox 5000, 7000 and 8000 are that they use fuser oil. this can be an issue if you are going to print book covers. Fuser oil will prevent book covers from allowing spine to be glued.
Also, Xerox machines are only 12.6 x 19.2 while the Cannon is the full 13 x 19.2. This actually makes a difference when printing 6" x ??" post cards with bleeds.
One of the best things about the Cannon vs. the Xerox is the dual fuser in the Cannon. This dual fuser means that the Cannon machine does not slow down nearly as much on full size heavy cover stocks as the Xerox needs to. Measuring speed of machines is VERY arcane. What we commercial printers really need to know is: "What is the speed at 13" x 19" 300gms Duplex? That is what you end up printing so much of anyway.
The biggest problem with Xerox is their Fuser Technology. That is always what seems to run into so much maintenance.
As a strategy, I think that it is a very good to think about starting with 1 machine and then planning ahead so that it makes sense to duplicate that very specific machine rather than upgrading to an Igen for example. Having multiples of the same machine is FAR more productive than a single machine that runs twice as fast.
I think that the good/bad news thinking on looking forward to an Igen, is that I doubt that there are many installations that are very profitable with only 1 Igen. If you only have one Igen, you are probably in a difficult financial situation. But if you can get up to where you need 2 Igens, you are probably doing fairly well. But you had better keep that volume going. If volume ever slacks off, you could be in a world of hurt.

There are a few slight flaws in your comments above.
1 - The C6000 is MUCH slower than the 7000VP not just a little (remember, it slows down on cover weights)
2 - 12.6 x 19.2 equals 4 up 6 x 9 with bleeds...same as 13x19
3 - The 5000AP, 7000AP and 8000AP do NOT slow down when run in All Weights mode even when duplexing 300gsm, The 8000AP will duplex 12x18, 300gsm at 1,200 iph, much faster than the ImagePress C6000
4 - Perfect binding has not been an issue with our 8000AP as long as you don't have toner coverage on the spine where it will be glued, we have had good success with our trade binder.

In no way am I saying the Canon ImagePress is inferior to the Xerox 5000-8000AP Series. I almost bought a 7000VP. I just want to make sure the OP has the correct information.
 
Ubertech
There ar 137 machines installed in Europe
I will have one installed in NYC in 2 weeks
You could stop by and see for yourself if you are near or in the City
As far as Drupa Drupa goes I did not hear or find anything on the internet that backs up what you said. If true please send it to me but that was almost 12 months ago and the C900 was in Beta
The C900 was unvieled in The United States in October 2008 Chicago Graphic Expo and the reviews seemed very good from what I have read and I have seen the machine run myself and I plan on buying several C900 machines.
Drupa is old news and the only review at drupa I saw was the video of the IGEN on fire like a smoke stack.
The Ricoh C900 is a winner in my eyes and I have owned the Canon 5100's and the Konica 6500 machines and it is time for a upgrade to a faster stronger quality machine for me.
Good Luck
 
C900 specs

C900 specs

Specifications


Main Unit

Main Unit Base Pro C900

Output Speed 8.5" x 11": 90 pages-per-minute in B&W and full-color

Configuration Base Unit includes Plotting Engine, EFI Fiery Print Controller, 2 x 1,000-Sheet Tandem Tray, 1 x 500-Sheet Tray and 10.4" Operation Panel

Printing Process Dry electrostatic transfer with internal transfer belt; 4-drum method

Warm-Up Time Less than 420 seconds

Maximum Input Capacity 11,000 sheets (fully configured)

Media Size (Standard Input Trays): Tray 1: 8.5" x 11" (tandem), 11" x 17" with optional Tandem Tray Converter
Tray 2: 5.5" x 8.5" – 13" x 18"

Media Weight (Standard Input Trays): Tray 1: 16 lb. Bond – 80 lb. Cover
Tray 2: 16 lb. Bond – 80 lb. Cover

Dimensions (W x D x H) 49.2" x 43.3" x 56.7"

Weight 1,543.2 lbs. (700 kg) or less

Power Requirements 240V, 24A

Maximum Power Consumption Less than 5,500W




3,000-Sheet Finisher (SR3030)

Maximum Output Media Capacity 13,000 sheets (fully configured)




Paper Handling Specifications

Standard Utilities: Print Submission & Management EFI Driver, EFI Command WorkStation Management (PC & Mac), Fiery WebTools, EFI Hot Folders, EFI Virtual Printer, Macintosh Print Center Plug-Ins, Rush Printing, Print/Process Next, Advanced Job Re-Order, Suspend On Mismatch, Quick Doc Merge, Schedule Print
Color Management & Proofing EFI Fiery ColorWise, Fiery Graphic Arts Package
Imposition & Document Assembly Mixed Media, Paper Catalogue, Tab Shift, Insert Tab, Booklet Maker, EFI Impose, Fiery Edition
Variable Data Printing PPML, EFI Fiery FreeForm, Fiery VDP Resource Manager, Creo VPS




EFI™ Fiery® Print Controller Specifications

CPU Intel Core Duo 2.16 GHz

Memory 2 GB

Hard Disk Drive 500 GB (250 GB x 2)

Operating System Windows XP

Optional Utilities: Web Image Monitor, Ricoh @Remote

Optional Utilities: Color Management & Proofing Fiery Graphic Arts Package Premium Edition, EFI Color Profiler Suite V2.2
Imposition & Document Assembly EFI Compose Fiery Edition

Color Measurement ES-1000 Color Spectrophotometer




Security Specifications

SMTP v3 Authentication, POP before SMTP, PDF Encryption, User Codes
 
Ubertech
There ar 137 machines installed in Europe
I will have one installed in NYC in 2 weeks
You could stop by and see for yourself if you are near or in the City
As far as Drupa Drupa goes I did not hear or find anything on the internet that backs up what you said. If true please send it to me but that was almost 12 months ago and the C900 was in Beta
The C900 was unvieled in The United States in October 2008 Chicago Graphic Expo and the reviews seemed very good from what I have read and I have seen the machine run myself and I plan on buying several C900 machines.
Drupa is old news and the only review at drupa I saw was the video of the IGEN on fire like a smoke stack.
The Ricoh C900 is a winner in my eyes and I have owned the Canon 5100's and the Konica 6500 machines and it is time for a upgrade to a faster stronger quality machine for me.
Good Luck

Sure, more hot air really. If you could get one of the 137 Europe owners to chip in and give us some feedback that would be great. As for Drupa, I got this from people who were at drupa not off the net.
 
Response to Flaws

Response to Flaws

There are a few slight flaws in your comments above.
1 - The C6000 is MUCH slower than the 7000VP not just a little (remember, it slows down on cover weights)
2 - 12.6 x 19.2 equals 4 up 6 x 9 with bleeds...same as 13x19
3 - The 5000AP, 7000AP and 8000AP do NOT slow down when run in All Weights mode even when duplexing 300gsm, The 8000AP will duplex 12x18, 300gsm at 1,200 iph, much faster than the ImagePress C6000
4 - Perfect binding has not been an issue with our 8000AP as long as you don't have toner coverage on the spine where it will be glued, we have had good success with our trade binder.

In no way am I saying the Canon ImagePress is inferior to the Xerox 5000-8000AP Series. I almost bought a 7000VP. I just want to make sure the OP has the correct information.

1. On the C6000 being slower than the c7000, it is roughly 12% slower. Take that for what it is. Certainly I would always want it to be faster.

2. on the bleeds on 12.6, that is REALLY cutting it close. You can't print all the way to the edge, so at BEST you might get 12.35" of print, but realistically not when you try to do back-ups because getting it to print dead center on the page to have the equal amount of .125" of margin on each side, I never found doable. Also, then you are left with VERY small crop marks. Yes, it is doable, but you probably find trying to make 1/16 bleeds but then run into registration issues. But again, yes, it is doable even on 12.5" x 19 as is a general cut down from a standard 19" x 25" sheet.

3. You say that the fastest of the 3 machines that you mention (the 8000AP) runs 12" x 18" at 1,200 IPH. By doing the math, that means it is doing 20 impressions per minute meaning 10 sheets (duplexed) per minute. Right now, as I am typing this, I am running a job on a 300 gsm sheet at 13" x 19" duplex at 10 sheets per minute. At what speed will the 8000AP run 13" x 19"? This speed issue is one of the most important reasons that I went with the Cannon rather than the Xerox. While you say that the 8000AP (WAY more expensive than the C6000) is faster than the C6000, It really is not faster on these sizes of sheets. Yes, the 8000 stands for (80 images per minute on 8.5 x 11 plain paper) and the 6000 stands for 60 sheets per minute on 8.5 x 11. But NONE of us are running 8.5 x 11 plain paper on these presses.

4. The problem with the fuser oil is that it even goes where there is no toner. So just "not having toner in the spine," doesn't fully solve the issue. Fuser oil, is by definition, a "Release Agent." That is why glues will "Release" from areas with fuser oil. But yes, if you are having good luck with it, that is good. Like anything in printing, when it is going right, don't try to fix it.

I really believe that Xerox has got to be coming out with a new machine very soon. They really need a better machine to fit in the correct place. The 700 has come in and stolen much of what the 5000 was supposed to do, yet, it is not really a hard labor machine. I would worry about putting 70,000 13 x 19 220 gsm through it per month.
 
Let me get this right your canon 6000 is the same speed as a Xerox 8000AP? Perhaps Craigs 8000 is not an AP so slows for heavier stock?
 
3. You say that the fastest of the 3 machines that you mention (the 8000AP) runs 12" x 18" at 1,200 IPH. By doing the math, that means it is doing 20 impressions per minute meaning 10 sheets (duplexed) per minute. Right now, as I am typing this, I am running a job on a 300 gsm sheet at 13" x 19" duplex at 10 sheets per minute. At what speed will the 8000AP run 13" x 19"? This speed issue is one of the most important reasons that I went with the Cannon rather than the Xerox. While you say that the 8000AP (WAY more expensive than the C6000) is faster than the C6000, It really is not faster on these sizes of sheets. Yes, the 8000 stands for (80 images per minute on 8.5 x 11 plain paper) and the 6000 stands for 60 sheets per minute on 8.5 x 11. But NONE of us are running 8.5 x 11 plain paper on these presses.

Wrong, but it may have been my mistake, I said iph, should have said sph.
1200/60 = 20 DUPLEXED sheets per minute or 40 impressions per minute. That's twice as fast as the 6000C....... My bad.
 
Let me get this right your canon 6000 is the same speed as a Xerox 8000AP? Perhaps Craigs 8000 is not an AP so slows for heavier stock?

So if he meant 1200 SHEETS per hour rather that 1200 IMAGES per hour, then yes, the 8000 is faster than the 6000. The Cannon 7000 is 16 sheets per minute double sided on the 13.2 x 19 sheet.

Also, notice that he was very specific about 12x18 and NOT 13 x 19. Actually, the 8000 can't do the 13 wide. But it can do the 19 long, but it slows down again on the stocks longer than 18. From my understanding the Chasis on the Xerox 5000, 7000 and 8000 is the same. So it has the same restrictions on papers longer than 18". That is why he quoted 12" x 18" and not 19" long.

Also, the new "AP" versions where simply software upgrades to make the fuser get hotter. Not a re-design of the entire fuser assembly. Not really the most elegant way to go faster long term. A bigger fuser roller might be better.

One of the benefits of the Cannon is the double fuser. That means they don't need to slow down as much.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a Xerox basher. In fact I really like my xerox equipment (I still have my 250), my technicians and even my Xerox sales rep. In fact, I think that my Xerox techs are overall better than my Cannon techs because this relatively new (basiclly 2 years old) Cannon machine is new to so many of the techs.

Xerox has a problem because they have been a leader for so long. Their line of machines is based on old technology. They have one line of Chasis's that they have been using for years and years for their "Production" equipment. That is basically the same from the 2045, 2060, 6060, 7000, 8000 and even now the newest 5000. This Chasis has restricted any total revamp of the fuser and paper path which forces them to sheet size restrictions which gives problems with speed and fusing.

Then there is the superior imaging technology (higher resolution, better toner and no fuser oil) that they rolled out in the 240, 250, 260. But the issue here is a much less heavy duty fuser.

The 5000 is an attempt to marry together the superior imaging quality on the 240, 250 260 with the higher production machine stamina of their old reliable workhorse chasis of the 2045, 2060, 6060, 7000 and 8000. But then that better imaging technology still has the restrictions of the VERY old Chasis.

Then they came out with the 700. Basically the 260 with 3 extra inches to allow for heavier weights of paper to be duplexed. That is cool, but still has the less heavy duty fuser, so not so good for lots of high volume cover stock.

Now, the Igen is the oldest technology. They had been working on that technology from early in the 90's. By the time they came to market with it, there were already better image technologies out on the market. I hear that the latest version of the Igen is getting better imaging, but still, the entire box was built with very old thinking. Not that it is bad, but it does make it a very different technology than that other machines listed earlier.

There are so many considerations to all of this other than simply machine capabilities. The Igen requires a VERY different business model than the rest of the digital equipment out there. One of the big problems is that it is difficult for any of us to control the specific business situation to which we exist from one month to another.
 
Last edited:
Base,
I'm not dancing around on the 12.5x19 print speed. I have only ran that sheet 2 or 3 times and I never bothered to pay attention, I would guess it's around 15 sheets per minute duplexed.

The comment about the fuser just being hotter is absolutely incorrect. It is a completely different fuser, different part numbers, just ask a tech who put the 8000 fuser parts in the AP. It doesn't work very long. Also in all weights mode the fuser actually runs cooler. This came from engineering in Rochester NY, via my tech. He needed to verify since we are the only 8000AP in their territory, the rest are non-AP boxes.

Could you please explain what problems the chassis has given with regards to speed and fusing? I can't quite grasp that, since mine fuses extremely well and is faster than anything Canon has. I will give Canon a point for the 13x19 paper, but that is a non issue for my business, so therefore not based on my decision.

Like you, I'm not bashing or flaming, just want to make sure the correct information is out there.
 
Ricoh C900 vs. fast plastic

Ricoh C900 vs. fast plastic

The C900's main unit (not inc. the large paper trays or finishers) weighs in at over 1500lbs. There's alot of metal in that machine.
 
Hi,

there r things you'd find in the Canon imagePRESS that you wont find with other competitors.

the canon slightly has offset-like quality and rated speed on all stocks weight n types. (VP models only) due to the dual fusers canon uses.

also, the registration is 0.25mm even better than offset machines and no way Xerox will be as much closer to this figure plus the Canon is FOGRA certified and one main important thing u have to consider is COLOR SHIFTING and color consistency. xerox has failed big time in that where as the canon has proven that no one can beats their machine in that area.

moreover, the Canon has full in-line finishing and can print you a fully finished books with 3-sided trimming.

one last thing you may consider is : u might find the canon hardware cost is slightly more expensive than the xerox just dont pay attention to that and consider the TCO ( total cost of ownership on both) saving on the canon will be much much higher than the xerox.

for your volume i'd recommend you the imagePRESSc 6000vp against Xerox DC7000

you can buy the imagePRESS C1+ as a bundle with the canon machine and enjoy printing using the clear toner. exclusively amazing feature the canon has brought out to the market.
 

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