Decent IGEN replacement

[X33]

I've seen Xerox iGens running only 100,000 prints a month.

how? because all they run are very high profitable VDP applications. not your typical static business card jobs.

if your volume is static, take it down to a Xerox DocuColor 7000AP/8000AP.

 

[raminmd]

Hi all:

I narrowed my selection to either the 7000vp or the 8000AP.

Keeping the IGEN is out of question. The previous owner was being charged $0.092 per click on top of the astronomical equipment lease price when everyone else charges $0.045-$0.05 per click is insane. They wanted him to extend the lease to get the clicks down to $0.052. Anyway, I don't want to get an IGEN hoping to build volumes to justify the cost. I would rather get a smaller machine and if my volumes build to the point where one box is not enough, I will get another one. From the numbers I ran on a 7000VP, it would still be cheaper than 1 IGEN.

Between the 8000AP and the 7000VP, I am leaning towards the Canon as I really liked the quality on some samples we ran on the Canon and the price seems to be just right. I will still look at a Xerox 5000VP as it sounds like a very good machine but I am a little wary of Xerox based on the experience of the previous owner.

 

[PineyBob]

Hi all:

I narrowed my selection to either the 7000vp or the 8000AP.

Keeping the IGEN is out of question. The previous owner was being charged $0.092 per click on top of the astronomical equipment lease price when everyone else charges $0.045-$0.05 per click is insane. They wanted him to extend the lease to get the clicks down to $0.052. Anyway, I don't want to get an IGEN hoping to build volumes to justify the cost. I would rather get a smaller machine and if my volumes build to the point where one box is not enough, I will get another one. From the numbers I ran on a 7000VP, it would still be cheaper than 1 IGEN.

Between the 8000AP and the 7000VP, I am leaning towards the Canon as I really liked the quality on some samples we ran on the Canon and the price seems to be just right. I will still look at a Xerox 5000VP as it sounds like a very good machine but I am a little wary of Xerox based on the experience of the previous owner.

Do yourself a favor on the Canon 7000VP.

Test the crap out of it on live files that you are looking at producing.

Ask to meet the Service Manager and make sure you're confident that you will be serviced to YOUR expectations. Every Sales Rep promises the world on a Platinum platter when it comes to service. Talk to the Service Manager to make sure you don't end up with a bucket of manure with a blue ribbon tied 'round. Canon has a spotty reputation when it comes to keeping these puppies running at peak levels and in my experience it's the service techs/manager who often make the difference.

Ask for references and call and if possible visit their locations.

Ask lots and lots of questions and make sure you're comfortable with it BEFORE you sign a thing.

Remember it's a digital press being sold by copier reps and that alone should be warning enough.

 

[Craig]

Remember it's a digital press being sold by copier reps and that alone should be warning enough.

Well said!

But test both the 7000VP and the 8000AP with the same live jobs, see how they compare in both quality and speed.

 

[PineyBob]

Well said!

But test both the 7000VP and the 8000AP with the same live jobs, see how they compare in both quality and speed.

Craig,

Thanks for the kinds words. Just to be fair to Canon, Xerox doesn't have the market cornered on ethics. Remember the Xerox Reps who sell the big iron started out selling little iron so they come from the same "Down The Street" mind set. Primary difference being that they have balls enough to ask for several hundred thousand and make it seem like pocket change.

Despite Xerox being a major Pain in the assets if your machine is the one mutt in a room full of show dogs they will ultimately respond and usually in your favor. Not always the case with the Asian manufacturers.

 

[Craig]

Just to be fair to Canon, Xerox doesn't have the market cornered on ethics.

Do any of them?!

I don't give Xerox the upper hand on production because of their reps, but they just have a different mentality about it compared to my 14 year experience with Canon. Maybe I am blessed to have exception sales/service, but everyone understands that no one is making money when the box is idle. Canon just kept making excuses.

 

[StrikTenn913]

Just to clarify one point about the M700 vs. the C7000VP question... the Canon engine also has operator replaceable parts as part of their customer productivity program. The servicing model is also different for these two manufacturers.

 

[PineyBob]

Do any of them?!

Canon just kept making excuses.

Are you in the USA Craig?

Just curious as to who was the dealer/service provider?

 

[Craig]

Are you in the USA Craig?

Just curious as to who was the dealer/service provider?

I am in Ohio, Gordon Flesch was the dealer/service provider, and to be fair to them they busted their butts to keep the machine running, even to the point of loosing $0.03 per click on it. I had 113 recorded service call the last year I owned it! Canon basically threw them and me under the bus at the same time.

After that fiasco there was no way I will ever go back to Canon, and that's too bad because I liked the 7000VP. After having Janet Cain look me straight in the eye and acknowledge each and every issue, and tell me the only resolve was to buy a 7000VP it made me wonder, what will she/Canon tell me if the 7000VP tanks out?

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

Craig,

Sorry if I missed this somewhere but what Canon device did you have before was it a 7000VP?

 

[PineyBob]

I am in Ohio, Gordon Flesch was the dealer/service provider, and to be fair to them they busted their butts to keep the machine running, even to the point of loosing $0.03 per click on it. I had 113 recorded service call the last year I owned it! Canon basically threw them and me under the bus at the same time.

After that fiasco there was no way I will ever go back to Canon, and that's too bad because I liked the 7000VP. After having Janet Cain look me straight in the eye and acknowledge each and every issue, and tell me the only resolve was to buy a 7000VP it made me wonder, what will she/Canon tell me if the 7000VP tanks out?

If you ever want to seriously consider a Konica-Minolta product let me know. I have a colleague who live in OH and you can ask questions and get straight answers

RE: Janet Cain has retired from Canon USA. Canon has a history of doing what they did to you and their Dealer. Gordon Flesch is the largest Independent dealer that Canon has and generally speaking are very customer focused. If the manufacturer won't back the dealer you're screwed and if you notice that many of my posts deal with the support/service aspects of the purchase.

 

[Craig]

Thanks for the offer Piney, but my needs don't fit into the KM6500/6501 niche, 65% of what I run is in the 220-300gsm Gloss Coated range, duplexed. My brother in law works in a print shop with a KM6500 and they have a love/hate relationship with it, mostly hate though!

As far as Janet Cain being retired, I don't care if it's Janet Cain or Janet Jackson, she represented Canon USA! If the attitude of Canon USA is sorry about your luck, but that was our old flagship, you need to get the new flagship in order to solve our problems! I don't think so. After 13 years with Canon Boxes too, that's the sad shame, they want me to be loyal to them, yet offer NOTHING in return!

That's the attitude of the business copier market, well I'm no longer dealing with "Fast Plastic" boxes that can be swapped out after a few hundred thousand copies. My 8000AP was well over $300K, with an investment like this I needed a company with a different attitude, one that understands print for pay production, and I am happy to say I have it with Xerox.

 

[PineyBob]

Thanks for the offer Piney, but my needs don't fit into the KM6500/6501 niche, 65% of what I run is in the 220-300gsm Gloss Coated range, duplexed. My brother in law works in a print shop with a KM6500 and they have a love/hate relationship with it, mostly hate though!

As far as Janet Cain being retired, I don't care if it's Janet Cain or Janet Jackson, she represented Canon USA! If the attitude of Canon USA is sorry about your luck, but that was our old flagship, you need to get the new flagship in order to solve our problems! I don't think so. After 13 years with Canon Boxes too, that's the sad shame, they want me to be loyal to them, yet offer NOTHING in return!

That's the attitude of the business copier market, well I'm no longer dealing with "Fast Plastic" boxes that can be swapped out after a few hundred thousand copies. My 8000AP was well over $300K, with an investment like this I needed a company with a different attitude, one that understands print for pay production, and I am happy to say I have it with Xerox.

No disagreement here Craig

 

[dpress]

Presstek DI

Presstek DI

Have you thought about the Prestek 34 or 52 DI Press? No Click charges, 300 line waterelss offset printing to statisfy your customers needs?

 

[Craig]

Not sure if it's his application, but have you ever tried to run a variable data job on a DI? May not have click charges, but you have $40.00 in plates right off the top, plus wash-ups and chemicals/inks.

The DI's are not what their all cracked up to be, I have looked into them quite a bit when I was making the decision on the digital press I have now. While you are imaging your plates I have already printed the 1000 brochures and sending them to trim and fold. Also for the $40.00 in plates I have covered the cost of 816, 8-1/2 x 11 4/4 prints. (based on .049/click run 2-up)

Now if your print runs are 2500 and over the DI will be an OK fit, but an automated 4 color press with a CTP platemaker would be less expensive to own and operate.

 

[Pro Digital Solutions]

I think everyone left out the best machine on the market, which is the Ricoh C900 Color Production System. Printing at 90 pages a minute on text or 110 cover your jobs will get out faster and the quality is superior, plus you have replaceable TRCU units that can be replaced by your own operator and have the machine back up and running in 10-20 minutes.
This is by far the best machine on the market.
SRP $117,500
You could buy two C900 for the price of a Canon 70 or four for the price of the IGen
In the printing business it is best to have redundancy so you are never down.

 

[X33]

Ricoh C900 Color Production System
This is by far the best machine on the market.
SRP $117,500

just one thought : "you get what you pay for"

 

[lfelton]

Not sure if it's his application, but have you ever tried to run a variable data job on a DI? May not have click charges, but you have $40.00 in plates right off the top, plus wash-ups and chemicals/inks.

The DI's are not what their all cracked up to be, I have looked into them quite a bit when I was making the decision on the digital press I have now. While you are imaging your plates I have already printed the 1000 brochures and sending them to trim and fold. Also for the $40.00 in plates I have covered the cost of 816, 8-1/2 x 11 4/4 prints. (based on .049/click run 2-up)

Now if your print runs are 2500 and over the DI will be an OK fit, but an automated 4 color press with a CTP platemaker would be less expensive to own and operate.

I think Craig is bang on the money, "dpress" has misunderstood the OP's requirements.

Incidently, Presstek just dropped a 14% hike in plate costs on us. We're strictly small time at about 1,400 plates a month, but that still hurts. At the same time they also notified us that our (3 year old) RIP for our CTP was "too old" to continue to maintain, so we need to buy a complete new RIP. I'm seriously thinking of jumping ship to Agfa!

 

[Pro Digital Solutions]

You get what you pay for plus more with the Ricoh C900 Color Production System

 

[Craig]

I think everyone left out the best machine on the market, which is the Ricoh C900 Color Production System. Printing at 90 pages a minute on text or 110 cover your jobs will get out faster and the quality is superior, plus you have replaceable TRCU units that can be replaced by your own operator and have the machine back up and running in 10-20 minutes.
This is by far the best machine on the market.
SRP $117,500
You could buy two C900 for the price of a Canon 70 or four for the price of the IGen
In the printing business it is best to have redundancy so you are never down.

Don't take this the wrong way, as a current Ricoh customer with an MP9000 with almost 10MM prints, I will chime in and say if the C900 has the same amount of plastic as the MP9000, it will never hold up to the same standards as that of an iGen or any other production press. I would class that print engine the same as a KM6500 or Xerox 700, entry level production.