Canon C6000 versus Xerox 5000

[Sterling]

We are also trying to get off the fence between the Canon C6000 and the Xerox 5000.

From a pricing perspective, the Xerox is a little less expensive with than the Canon without any accessories. If you add accessories, the Canon becomes less expensive than the Xerox.

For me, the biggest issue with the Canon is the service I will receive from the local dealer the fact that they want to service the machine every week, and how often the machine will be down.

For me, the biggest issue with the Xerox is that it still uses fuser oil. This is old technology and I guess Xerox just hasn't gotten around to updating the 5000 yet.

Thoughts????

 

[Cagey Veteran]

Just my 2 cents.
I have been servicing the Canon C7000/6000 for about a year and a half now, and I can tell you this; It's a Canon. It makes beautiful prints but is VERY service intensive. This machine is scheduled for PM work every 100,000 LTR/A4 size prints.
Considering most people print 11x17 and larger you're looking at service every 50k. If you think you will always get 50k between service visits, you won't, and you're gonna be down for a couple hours on a 'routine, everything goes great' svc call. You also have to consider each PM cycle builds on the last. Example: If you are due for 600K service, the tech needs to install a 100k, 200k, 300k and 600k PMKit. Oh, and at 500k he needed to do a 100k, 250k and 500k kit. Oh, and remember you have 2 fusing units that have seperate and staggered PM cycles depending on the stock weights you run. The secondary fuser only kicks in on weights 151gsm or higher.
The machine is rated at 300k/mo (LTR) at the top end and Canon does not recommend you run that volume every month, so you are looking at three calls just for routine service if everything runs well and you have a tech who does a thorough job.
If it sounds like I'm not crazy about this machine, well, I'm not. For a true "Production Digital Press" to need service so often to me is crazy. I have to admit I really don't know much about Xerox production color, so I would be interested to hear how it stacks up, service-wise.
I have been a tech for 24yrs and have been servicing color only since 1990. I have serviced only Canons until about 5 years ago when I started working on Konica-Minolta's and Ricoh's. (Can you guess where I work? LOL)
OK, maybe that was more than 2 cents worth.

 

[Sterling]

Thanks for your input Cagey.

Based on our volume (between 30,000 and 60,000 per month standard letter), the Canon rep told me that if we purchased the C6000 that we would need to be on a routine "weekly" service call for the machine.

Based on our volume, the Xerox rep told me that if we purchased the 5000 that we should expect a service call approximately once per month.

I am interested to hear what others have to say about these two machines.

 

[Arthaven]

Thanks for your input Cagey.

Based on our volume (between 30,000 and 60,000 per month standard letter), the Canon rep told me that if we purchased the C6000 that we would need to be on a routine "weekly" service call for the machine.

Based on our volume, the Xerox rep told me that if we purchased the 5000 that we should expect a service call approximately once per month.

I am interested to hear what others have to say about these two machines.

The other thing to keep in mind and figure out is who is giving accurate real world expectations and who isn't. I've dealt with Canon and Xerox before and my Canon guys have been right on the money and "realistic" with their information. Xerox have always pushed the envelope on what they say the machines are really capable of. I don't know about you but I sure hate surprises.

Also every situation is different. Environment, production capacity, operators, customer expectations, CSR's, etc. all play a role in everyone's impression of their equipment. How much will your down time be with that weekly Canon Service call? Is knowing that you'll have someone there every week a nice safe feeling in case anything goes wrong or is it more of a burden? Can you the Xerox tech be on time consistently when you need service? What about part availability? There's nothing worse than a rush job that you can't do because the tech doesn't have the part and the warehouse has it and it will be tomorrow...or the warehouse doesn't have it. The 5000 and C6000 are both popular machines with parts readily available but Canon has less inventory to screw up on since they have fewer machines to focus on in any given market.

Sorry if none of that helped. Bottom line is I have had really good experience with Canon machines and service and not so good experience with Xerox machines and service.

 

[GotToner?]

Sterling;

The number one cause of service calls, waste and refused work on these color machines is streaking from fuser oil. I gotta tell ya, the issue is not going to go away. It just is what it is. Additionally, the presence of fuser oil will greatly affect your ability to laminate or UV coat your output. Even if you aren't doing it now, can you be 100% certain that you won't land an account that requires that, say 2 years from now? My advice is to avoid oil at all costs.

With all due respect to Cagey Veteran (always be kind to the techs, they make the world go 'round!), he works for IKON. Canon canceled IKON in October and the techs don't have access to the latest firmware, upgrades and tech pubs. My guess is that he is an excellent technician working with 1 hand tied behind his back. These are the first imagePRESS products and Canon has bet the farm on the technology. They have no choice but to have it work. As a result, Canon has been extremely responsive to customer feedback and is addressing any issues with new firmware on a regular basis. The result is that the product continues to become more reliable every month. There have been several updates since October that have greatly improved the stability of the machine. Additionally, the techs are finding new approaches to the PM's that have reduced the frequency of service visits.

My final point is the fact that customers buy quality. If you deliver the finest quality that they can find, they really don't care if you have scheduled maintenance every 100,000 or every 100,000,000 pages. They only care about what they walk out of your shop with.

 

[Cagey Veteran]

Thanks for being kind to your techs, Got Toner. We really do appreciate it.

Just to clear things up, though. Yes, I work for IKON and Canon did "de-authorize" us as a dealer; but I still have access to all the latest updates, firmware, tech. pubs, etc. I can still call their tech support hotline and they will still talk to me. In my area we have always sold and serviced more Canons than any other dealers including Canon direct and we have more 6/7000 placements than they do. As a matter of fact, about 2 months ago we took over a C7000 account they (Canon) were having trouble supporting.
After all, as you said, they bet the farm on this machine so it's in their best interest to continue to make sure we keep these things running the best we can.

On a side note, just to be clear, the Canon no longer uses fuser oil.

Getting back to the original post... Sterling, if your volume is in that that 30-60k range the 6000 should be a great machine for you. I would expect you will probably even see your volume go up. Even at 100k, that once a week "check-up" should be no big deal for you. My concern was that if you push it to it's limit (300K), like one of my accounts, well, just get your tech his own coffee cup and put him on your Christmas list.

 

[X33]

Sterling, are you looking at the Xerox DocuColor 5000 or Xerox DocuColor 5000AP.

The AP has a new fuser (old one + retrofits). It still uses fuser oil but is much more controllable and reliable. Ask your Xerox rep about the VARIABLE GLOSS MANAGEMENT PROFILES KIT for the DocuColor 5000AP; you'll like it.

 

[dencen]

we had xerox for many years,we switched to canon last summer,2 6000vps,

we were running 60,000 12x18 heavy coverage 300gsm on each machine,after the first 100,000 clicks the technician basically. moved in.We never had both machines running at the same time for the last 3 months we had the machines.I replaced them with 2 5000aps and a 700 and could not be happier,I see my tech about once every 2 weeks.color and imaging is wonderful,oil streaking has not been an issue at all.

if you are relying on these machines as a primary component to your business and you want to sleep at night
I strongly recommend Xerox

 

[Craig]

we had xerox for many years,we switched to canon last summer,2 6000vps,

we were running 60,000 12x18 heavy coverage 300gsm on each machine,after the first 100,000 clicks the technician basically. moved in.We never had both machines running at the same time for the last 3 months we had the machines.I replaced them with 2 5000aps and a 700 and could not be happier,I see my tech about once every 2 weeks.color and imaging is wonderful,oil streaking has not been an issue at all.

if you are relying on these machines as a primary component to your business and you want to sleep at night
I strongly recommend Xerox

Sounds like my experience with Canon as well. Did Canon tell you that you should have got 2 7000VP's? That was their response to my problems with the CLC4000 a few years ago. I switched to the dark side and couldn't be happier. Dencen.... welcome to the dark side!!!

 

[Arthaven]

Did Canon tell you that you should have got 2 7000VP's? That was their response to my problems with the CLC4000 a few years ago.

That's what anyone will tell you. Kodak will try and sell you multiple NexPresses and Xerox pulls the same thing with their iGen line, 5000 line or whatever it may be. Of course Canon would say that.

 

[Craig]

Arthaven, the point is this. Canon NEVER offered to FIX their flagship box. They would only ACKNOWLEDGE the things that were wrong. For 3 years they did NOTHING. It wasn't until the 7000VP was released that they said "this will solve ALL the problems". Well guess what, now the 7000/6000VP are experiencing problems, what will Canons response be.... get a Xerox? They don't have a PRODUCTION mentality. Canon does not understand print for pay where customers reject jobs because the color is not the same on one half of the sheet as it is on the other.

 

[A.B Ula]

Arthaven, the point is this. Canon NEVER offered to FIX their flagship box. They would only ACKNOWLEDGE the things that were wrong. For 3 years they did NOTHING. It wasn't until the 7000VP was released that they said "this will solve ALL the problems". Well guess what, now the 7000/6000VP are experiencing problems, what will Canons response be.... get a Xerox? They don't have a PRODUCTION mentality. Canon does not understand print for pay where customers reject jobs because the color is not the same on one half of the sheet as it is on the other.

you said they are experiencing problems.. please show us proofs.. saying is a good thing.. but let us see some proofs please before accusing.

thanks

 

[condonm]

Xerox DC 5000 versus Canon 6000 / 7000

Xerox DC 5000 versus Canon 6000 / 7000

Has anyone reviewed the Xerox Customer Expectation Setting Document for the DC 5000? The CED is a great source of information. Armed with this document you will be better informed regarding the realistic duty cycle, media handling capabilities and registration expectations. I can send it if you are interested in reading it.

In speaking to many DC 5000 users and KM C6501 users and after reviewing the CED document, I've concluded that the DC 5000 is very comparable to the KM C6501. Realistic duty cycle, registration, media handling and output speed is comparable in fact almost identical on both machines. I am not referring to the DC 5000 AP.

The differences are the DC 5000 is a lot more money for older fuser oil technology and the KM will duplex slightly heavier stock (256gsm versus 220gsm). Brokers (JJ Bender, Copier Consultants) are offering $30,000 sometimes less for fully configured DC 5000's Fiery or CREO front end. The service costs are also much higher on the DC 5000 than KM due to it's age.

Bottom line is the DC 5000 is a decent machine, a little on the old side and definitely overpriced. If you really want a DC 5000 just wait a few months. I predict you will see the same situation with the DC 5000 that you saw with 2045's and 6060's when KM introduced the C6500. The DC 5000 prices been dropping substantially and it's only a matter of time (maybe 6 months to 1 year) before it will become difficult for Xerox to give DC 5000's away. KM will continue to chip away at Xerox marketshare and eventually Xerox or Canon or Ricoh will respond. The 700 is a good contendor to the KM C6500 / C6501 if the registration & media handling is truly improved (the jury is still out I believe).


Although I work for KM I am trying to be objective as possible based on factual information. I am in a support role with KM not direct sales and we also service the Canon 6000 / 7000 through our aquisition of Danka. It seems to be true that the Canon 7000 equipment does require very frequent service. We are seeing nationally an approximate MCBS (Mean Calls Between Service) to be about 26,000 impressions slightly worse than on the KM product (C6500 / C6501) Not so great for such an expensive piece of equipment, I was surprised to learn this recently.

 

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sounds like offset is still the way to go...