Digital press for long term reliability

[Craig]

random, please educate me : what CRUs do you have other than toner cartridges in the KM 65xx series?

I agree with Random on the fuser only, and only for the sake that if it's a pop and drop much like a web or a waste toner bottle then to me it would be engineered too light. (I will stand corrected if needed though). But on the other hand if you need to be trained on how to change them much like an iGen then thats an altogether different story, that machine is not in the office environment unless they have nothing better to spend $700,000.00 on.

If you have someone who can't change a web, corotron or add toner then how do they manage to load paper?

 

[random]

wow random ... KM is losing money by not having you in Sales

Know thy enemy rflores, know thy enemy.

 

[ZeeBees]

Comparisons:
HP indigo: way out of our league and price range.
HP 6501: Guaranteed quick service, good tech support from the buying process, good add-ons and inline features, ability to break lease at any time.
Canon C6000: Guaranteed quick service, a bit lower cost per month, good add-ons and inline features.
Canon C1: too small
Konica 5500: too limited
OCE: originally we dismissed these guys, but the low cost per print and inkjet tech is tempting to reconsider, lack of inline binding was originally disappointing.
Kodak: no local support
Xerox: while these are of the highest rank in quality, most all comparable machines seem out of our price range for our level of productivity.

size is important, ease of use is important, speed and quality are of lower importance as we have 3 warehouses for stock, inline folding and perfect binding are important, but the duplo line of externals can compensate if neccessary.
We are a bit fortunate to be in an industry that is not so hard hit by recent market activities and have projected growth scales which are looking to exclude a permanent machine for one which can be swapped out at a point for better technology or higher functionality.
so-don't matter if its cheap plastic, 'cause service guy is there, and can be swapped out instead of purchased for permanence.

 

[Craig]

so-don't matter if its cheap plastic, 'cause service guy is there, and can be swapped out instead of purchased for permanence.

Make sure you take down time into account when the service guy is there. What good is it to have a machine that's not running.

 

[Zubaz]

Make sure you take down time into account when the service guy is there. What good is it to have a machine that's not running.

From what I've heard Craig the PM on the Xerox devices takes 4 to 6+ hours as opposed to 2.5 hours for the KM 6500 (which we perform every 200k) not sure when Xerox PMs are performed.....

And if you anticipate the customer having to change drums, etc themselves then how much downtime would you associate with that?

 

[random]

From what I've heard Craig the PM on the Xerox devices takes 4 to 6+ hours as opposed to 2.5 hours for the KM 6500 (which we perform every 200k) not sure when Xerox PMs are performed.....

And if you anticipate the customer having to change drums, etc themselves then how much downtime would you associate with that?

Whoa, cool your heals lash larue. I don't think anyone would tolerate 4 to 6 hours of down time perhaps Craig could give us some perspective here on how long a PM takes. The 5000 engine is based on the 252 so has office machine consumables but has a 2060 type bed. The PM for this must be pretty short as most of the work the customer does. However I do find techs spend alot of time in the fuser.

 

[Craig]

I will preface this buy saying the time it takes for any maintenance work is directly related to the service engineers experience, and I am sure Random will agree.

With that being said the PM's on my 8000AP are done in small steps, not all at once, this minimizes down time and allows me to schedule service to fit my production needs. So to change drums (the Tech. does this I do not) takes about 20 min to do all 4. Developer takes about 25 min to do all 4. Rebuild the fuser if it's hot about 45 min, if it's cold about 30 min. 2nd BTB change about 5 min.

I have no idea how the 4 to 6+ hours got there, but it is not correct. The longest I have been down for a PM was about 2 hours, but that was because I had the fuser, developer and drums done at the same time per my request. I am also am very lucky to have extremely competent Field Engineers with a minimum of 25 years each at Xerox working on production boxes.

 

[Zubaz]

Maybe i'm a little high on the PM time on the Xerox, as you did answer correctly in that having a good field tech really makes the difference.

 

[Craig]

Trust me you were more than a little high, if I would endure that much down time I would have saved $300,000+ and kept my CLC4000!

 

[ZeeBees]

still narrowing down our choices:

Konica 6501-advantage-fast service time, larger more powerful but more complicated creo print server to run it, can do our perfect bound catalogs (full bleed or with tabs) limited to 200 sheets, right angle folded app sheets, external cutter, fully capable proposal with paper supply included in lease for under $4K month.

Canon 6000-Fast service time, no creo or fiery to power the digital printer, in-line 3 edge trimmer allows for easier and less personal involvement in producing a fully automated catalog, has external right angle folder and inline folder, can’t do postcards, business cards, inserts, ect. as it doesn’t come with an external cutter. Canon quality. Largest footprint. paper included in service for under $4K month.

Xerox 700-slower service time-4 hours versus the above 2 have 2 hours, xerox quality and reputation, new machine just out to market, no inline perfect binder, but external binder is faster and has trimmer cutter built into it, so can do our perfect bound catalogs (full bleed or with tabs) with over 200 sheets, external right angle folder and inline folder, external cutter, comes with fiery-easier than creo, maybe less capable as far as VPD goes. Lower cost per print fee. paper included in service for under $4K month.

as we are more low volume right now, the konica is looking to be the best bet for the options we need.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

Just as an FYI the 4-hour service response from Xerox, that can be a point of negotiation. Unless it is physically not possible based on your and their location you may be able to shoot for 1 hour call back 2 hours on site with parts.

 

[Craig]

Why would you have paper included in a lease? I am absolutely sure you can find paper cheaper from a PAPER distributer than a copier manufacturer. I would re-think that one.

 

[ZeeBees]

Craig: price of paper was determined firsthand through paper distributers, so we got the best prices that we could before submitting our paper prices for inclusion into lease contracts, figured the larger printing suppliers could meet or beat those prices and have the security of fixed prices built into contract versus fighting to keep paper in supply and prices set and guarded from potential paper price increases. So far we have been right about that, only one vendor was unable to beat the paper prices, the others have contractual price locks on paper pricing. For a graphics guy, I thought that was a pretty smart thing to think of.

Internal_R&D_Analyst: unfortunately the Xerox response time is based on geographical location. shame, because even the though I don't know so much about the xerox 700, her prices were superior and quality reputation superseded the other machines.

temperature consistence and humidity consistency are also being heavily factored into the decision process, this might eliminate the Canon C6000 from our possibilities. We are in florida, our main factory, where we're planning on dropping these units, is crowded and not temperature regulated as an office environment would be, the higher ranges level of the Konica may be making that the deciding factor.


I don't see many users of Oce' in these boards, anybody satisfied with the CS650 with inline perfect binder? Just got a last minute proposal from them with too good to be true prices.

Thanks for the help in getting this squared away.

 

[Craig]

What happens when the paper prices increase? Would that mean you rlease payment would as well or would they put a quota on how much you can order? I would only think the copier distributer could only secure a price for 6 months to a year at most. I'm not slamming anything, but I think I am on the third paper increase this year, plus fuel surplus charges.

Regarding your environment, get it in writing before you buy, but from my understanding all digital devices are happier in a temp/humidity controlled room. This could present a service he said she said in the future if the manufacture blames CQ on humidity.

If you truly feel more comfortable with the Xerox (or whatever brand) and the service response time is high, you can check the CED for the "average" number of service call per month, maybe it wouldn't be that bad if they are predicting 2 or 3 calls. I am averaging about 1 1/2 per month. Also find out who's technician has the most experience, that may equate to the problem being fixed the first time, with less repeat calls. I am lucky enough that my techs. have over 25 years with Xerox, they know their stuff.

From what I have heard that Oce service isn't so great, the sales are good though.

 

[ZeeBees]

What happens when the paper prices increase?

"Guaranteed paper prices for life of lease".
I'm thinking this was a pretty shrewd idea I had there. Especially since paper prices have jumped a few times this year. Since the dealers get their paper prices directly from same source, those dealer paper suppliers are aggressively assisting sales right now.

 

[Craig]

Good for you, I hope you use a bunch of paper!

 

[ZeeBees]

so after a year and a half or so with the 6501 with inline saddle stitcher, I have to say it has been a pretty good machine.
service has been fair and frequent but responsive to find alternatives for down times. I suppose all of these type of machines require a good deal of maintenance.
I think each of the different printer lease companies we were going through has gone out of business or been incorporated into other companies.
finding a paper supplier in our area has been a bit of a problem, it took several months and about 4 different vendors to settle on a good paper supplier.