Going from offset/web prepress to digital printing

[PineyBob]

Like that will happen

Random is living the Konica Minolta life, that is the ONLY brand that has an answer to everyone needs.... the 6500/6501! After all it's claim to fame is no fuser oil... therefore it's the best!!

Well said I notice little is mentioned regarding the speed degradation when running thicker stocks.

Doesn't it slow to 15ppm at max thickness? Now compare to a Canon 6000 which in theory is the "slower" machine. Here's what it means to a printer.

Canon = 60ppm x 60 minutes = 3,600 x .80 = 2,880 billable pieces per hour at 8.5 x 11.
2,880 pieces @ $1.25 each or $3,600 in generated revenue.

Now for the K-M number

K-M 6501 = 15ppm x 60 = 900 billable pieces per hour at 8.5 x 11.- 900 pieces @ $1.25 = $1,125.00 generated revenue per hour. NOTE: I gave K-M the benefit of the doubt in the example by NOT deducting 20% for waste, loading paper, etc, etc

Now then one can easily see the high cost of cheap. It's NOT what the hardware costs, it's how much the shop owner makes that counts.

In the above example the Canon generates more revenue in ONE HOUR then would be required to pay the increased monthly lease cost to aquire a true production machine from Canon or Xerox.

That's WHY some printers LOVE Xerox! Because despite the cost and often heavy handed way Xerox does business, because at the end of the day most of the Asian players still deliver "Fast Plastic" while Xerox delivers the "Big Iron" and the profit that comes along with it to the printing community.

 

[random]

I can talk all day and give specs to why the 700 is a better box that the 6501 because I have real documentation. Not a made up drum issue you mentioned in a previous thread. Just remember some people here want real answers to real problems.
PS I might be able to get you a job with Xerox on a temp basis if you like.

Oh please talk all day please please please! Im not anti-xerox it's just Team Xerox (Craig and pineybob) need to be kept inline.

Doesn't it slow to 15ppm at max thickness? Now compare to a Canon 6000 which in theory is the "slower" machine. Here's what it means to a printer.

Canon = 60ppm x 60 minutes = 3,600 x .80 = 2,880 billable pieces per hour at 8.5 x 11.
2,880 pieces @ $1.25 each or $3,600 in generated revenue.

Now for the K-M number

K-M 6501 = 15ppm x 60 = 900 billable pieces per hour at 8.5 x 11.- 900 pieces @ $1.25 = $1,125.00 generated revenue per hour. NOTE: I gave K-M the benefit of the doubt in the example by NOT deducting 20% for waste, loading paper, etc, etc

Why would anyone take you seriously when you can't get something as simple as print speeds right?. This just shows really that you have done no research in this area and much like Craig you are running on gut feeling.The 6500 will slow down to 15 SRA3 sheets a minute not 8.5x11. The 6000 drops to 19 sheets a minute imagePRESS C6000 - Canon Singapore. Assumeing you could get a 6000 to work longer than 3 months obviously. If your still pineing about the 4 sheets you could get two c6500 for the price of a 6000 so you would have further redundancy.

 

[rsands]

lol another star debate between the Xerox team and KM team! and dont forget the cheaper costs with the KM machines on click charges, etc...so the above calculation was also wrong there. we can all turn revenue figures...i can make my revenue 10million a year and have no profit.

 

[PineyBob]

Oh please talk all day please please please! Im not anti-xerox it's just Team Xerox (Craig and pineybob) need to be kept inline.



Why would anyone take you seriously when you can't get something as simple as print speeds right?. This just shows really that you have done no research in this area and much like Craig you are running on gut feeling.The 6500 will slow down to 15 SRA3 sheets a minute not 8.5x11. The 6000 drops to 19 sheets a minute imagePRESS C6000 - Canon Singapore. Assumeing you could get a 6000 to work longer than 3 months obviously. If your still pineing about the 4 sheets you could get two c6500 for the price of a 6000 so you would have further redundancy.

Next time you go to war don't come armed with a rock.

On SRA3 the 6000VP runs at 29.8 Prints per minute. Please refer to the following spec. http://usa.canon.com/cpr/pdf/Brochures/copier_c6000vp_brochure_050608.pdf. Since you're so smart maybe you can tell us why dispite nearly an hour of searching the internet any documentation to support your claim of 15ppm on SRA3?

I did see it on some Canon launch materials @ 15ppm on 8.5 x 11. All published rated speeds are 8.5 x 11 in the USA.

Further if the cost differential is 2 mils on the click charge the increased productivity more than offsets the differential.

The magic one hour of incresed productivity still yields over $1,500.00 in increased revenue. Or put another way enough to pay a 2 mil differential on 750,000 clicks. That's of course assuming the 15ppm on SRA3. BTW I reviewed the product brochure and EVERY good thing that favors the K-M, yet NOTHING, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH regarding real world throughput capabilities except the word of the all knowing all seeing Random.

And just for clarification, I've no axe to grind one way or the other having worked for all three players over a total of 20 years. They have their strong points and their weak points and that is my point. K-M offers IMO a very solid product for a certain segment of the market. So do Canon and Xerox.

During my experience as a Printing & Publisishing Specialist one thing I noticed were the shops most focused on beating every dollar of profit out of my deal were also the ones with the most credit problems, tax liens, judgements, requirements for a Personal Guarantee, etc. Conversely the ones that were the most creditworthy were also the running the "Expensive" Xerox & Canon equipment. See folks when you leave a Salesperson no profit in the deal a funny thing happens when you call begging for help, you don't get a return phone call in 20 minutes it might be 3 days. But hey you beat the Rep, what a shrewd negotiator you are.

OK rant off

 

[gig0]

And just for clarification, I've no axe to grind one way or the other having worked for all three players over a total of 20 years.

Speaking as someone who is not biased (yet), 20 years experience is a non-factor when it comes to digital since off-set quality hasn't been a reality up until recently, though. Make no mistake, I still appreciate the feedback, good and bad.

I'm still digging this thread though. Keep it coming!

 

[random]

Oh, so it's the 6000VP now! So you think the comparison between one machine and another a 1/4 it's price is fair game?

I don't actually design the brochures so I can't tell you why the speeds aren't in it. What can I say, it drops to half speed on 300gsm. Other Users will validate this.

So, what your saying is that if you can't afford a xerox or a canon for that matter you should'nt be in business? As you would expect I have a different opinion on this. A lot of the machines we have installed have been with people that are traditional printers trying out the digital market and don't want to dump all that equity into something that might not fly.

Typically we help them find there feet pretty quick and usually this turns into another sale.

In saying that I can't say I have had a customer say to me that they missed a deadline because the machine was too slow. However my customers run paper weights other than 300gsm unlike yours.

 

[rsands]

to be honest PineyBob it is sales guys likes you that would annoy the life outa me and others. a deal is a deal...you work for the manufacturer (usually anyhow and correct me if i am wrong and you were self employed at the time of selling them machines) and not yourself...so whether or not you sold it with no profit and the customer wants help...that isn't your problem. you didn't have to accept the deal the customer offered...so back up every single customer...not the ones you can be bothered looking after because they give your pay slip a bigger number

AND you cant compare a ferrari to a ford fiesta

rant off

 

[random]

AND you cant compare a ferrari to a ford fiesta
rant off

I prefer the Murcielago to Mitsi Evolution compare.

 

[xxeroid]

Craig, your comments are classic Xerox dribble. As an ex xeriod, who has sold Igen, I can tell you that the Bizhub C6501 WILL compete with the DC5000, 7000, 8000, 8000AP and by default, the Igen. Given that output from the Igen is worse than the 8000, its pretty rough to be classing the "bankrupt" device as a full production device. Yes it has a place, but its by no means the be all machine. The Bizhub has an absolute advantage over ANY xerox. It is rated for offset stocks, something that Xerox wont do. There are two key areas that the Bizhub C6501 and 6500 will walk all over the likes of a Xerox 5000, DC260, DC700. Those are registration, which is iso certified to 0.5mm and its ability to hold its colour over a long run. All you Xeroids who haven't woken up to reality yet, need to. Competition is out there, and its good.

 

[random]

I don't feel so lonely now.

I don't feel so lonely now.

Omg rofl lol

 

[Craig]

I can tell you that the Bizhub C6501 WILL compete with the DC5000, 7000, 8000, 8000AP and by default, the Igen.

Please enlighten everyone how. Is it print quality or productivity, or maybe it's its dapper looks and styling?

The Bizhub has an absolute advantage over ANY xerox. It is rated for offset stocks, something that Xerox wont do. There are two key areas that the Bizhub C6501 and 6500 will walk all over the likes of a Xerox 5000, DC260, DC700. Those are registration, which is iso certified to 0.5mm and its ability to hold its colour over a long run. All you Xeroids who haven't woken up to reality yet, need to. Competition is out there, and its good.

I noticed you forgot to include the 8000AP and iGen in the above "key areas", yet in the first comment the C6501 will compete???

Yes competition is good, that's why Xerox competes with Canon and Kodak in the production market, and Konica Minolta in the business color market.

I don't think you read that Gigi0 is stuck with the 6501, therefore this is a moot point for him. He will understand in 2 or 3 years after the plastic parts start to crumble why the 6501 is so cheap. But on the bright side he can throw it to the curb for recycling!

 

[PineyBob]

to be honest PineyBob it is sales guys likes you that would annoy the life outa me and others. a deal is a deal...you work for the manufacturer (usually anyhow and correct me if i am wrong and you were self employed at the time of selling them machines) and not yourself...so whether or not you sold it with no profit and the customer wants help...that isn't your problem. you didn't have to accept the deal the customer offered...so back up every single customer...not the ones you can be bothered looking after because they give your pay slip a bigger number

AND you cant compare a ferrari to a ford fiesta

rant off

If I as a Salespperson have exactly enough time to respond to a customer prior to my next apointment which one do you think I make?

The one who I make $84.00 commission on or the guy who bought EIGHT machines with 20 points of margin and a Commission of nearly $16,000.00??

You do the same with your customers so get off your soapbox.

As the former Philly Congressman Michael "ozzie" Myers said on an FBI tape durng ABSCAM "Money talks and BS walks".

BTW, customers on credit hold for supplies don't get return phone calls either. I have always been straight forward with customers. Told EVERY sngle printer I ever did busness with that any invoice unpaid after 60 days would put them on credit hold and they would have to give the technician a check for the FULL amount upon arrival or the machine would stay broken. You'd be surprised how many referrals I got. In return we had a Print for pay response time that averaged just over 2 hours.

 

[rsands]

i understand if someone isn't paying the technician goes on hold...but a sales problem or an unresolved technician complaint is what i meant, sorry i should have verified that bit a bit more.

BUT sales people suck in that relation...they only chase the ones that line their back pockets AT PRESENT...the ones they dont bother attending to could be the ones that line your pocket down the line. I dont come from a sales background...i am processing in the middle and end so i do look after every customer whether their job is worth 1 or 10K bank notes! its sales people that usually dump printers in the deep end and dont bother doing anything about it...as long as their commission shows up on the pay slip...that customer was just another statistic...thats the problem with todays selling...no personal touch aand customer care (in an overall view...not pinpointed at you or downgrading anyone else)

 

[PineyBob]

i understand if someone isn't paying the technician goes on hold...but a sales problem or an unresolved technician complaint is what i meant, sorry i should have verified that bit a bit more.

BUT sales people suck in that relation...they only chase the ones that line their back pockets AT PRESENT...the ones they dont bother attending to could be the ones that line your pocket down the line. I dont come from a sales background...i am processing in the middle and end so i do look after every customer whether their job is worth 1 or 10K bank notes! its sales people that usually dump printers in the deep end and dont bother doing anything about it...as long as their commission shows up on the pay slip...that customer was just another statistic...thats the problem with todays selling...no personal touch aand customer care (in an overall view...not pinpointed at you or downgrading anyone else)

I don't disagree with a great deal of what you've said as often there are Sales Persons who will lie, cheat and God knows what in order to get a deal. Conversely there are Printers out there that make Sales People look like Boy Scouts.

I had one demand a $500.00 kickback off the books in order to do the deal. Never mnd that he beat the deal to down to the point there wasn't even $500.00 Gross Profit in the deal. This is one example of why to two industries hate each other.

 

[rsands]

i can see your point there. some people dont understand everyone needs to make a bit of money but unfort most sales ppl are letting the few others down badly...and then there is Xerox...waste of time in customer care

 

[xxeroid]

Please enlighten everyone how. Is it print quality or productivity, or maybe it's its dapper looks and styling?



I noticed you forgot to include the 8000AP and iGen in the above "key areas", yet in the first comment the C6501 will compete???

The 8000AP is nothing more than a sped up 8000. Nothing startling in that machine really. Sure there is a bit less silicon, but I would still much prefer the 6500 over the 8000AP. Just because Xerox sticks another couple of letters after the number, it doesnt mean its a whole new machine. Thats just xerox marketing. As for the Igen, any tech worth his weight in gold will tell you that the print quality off the 8000 is better than the Igen. So what does Igen really offer?? Bigger paper size and speed. Nothing more than an 8000. It wont run offset stocks, registration isn't great, has a lot of "down time". The machine is a flop.


Yes competition is good, that's why Xerox competes with Canon and Kodak in the production market, and Konica Minolta in the business color market.

I don't think you read that Gigi0 is stuck with the 6501, therefore this is a moot point for him. He will understand in 2 or 3 years after the plastic parts start to crumble why the 6501 is so cheap. But on the bright side he can throw it to the curb for recycling!

hahahahaha, you are brainwashed arent you. Been there, done that. Believed the dribble that Xerox brainwashes you with. If you want to have a look at a true production device, one that is built to last look at the Oce 6000 black and white series. That gear will leave any xerox for dead. Nuvera can't compete. 288 just crumbles when confronted with it. The day of the big x is over and now its commonly referred to as "the broken x"

 

[Craig]

hahahahaha, you are brainwashed arent you. Been there, done that. Believed the dribble that Xerox brainwashes you with. If you want to have a look at a true production device, one that is built to last look at the Oce 6000 black and white series. That gear will leave any xerox for dead. Nuvera can't compete. 288 just crumbles when confronted with it. The day of the big x is over and now its commonly referred to as "the broken x"

At least you answered the questions... NOT! Must be that your can't back-up the crap you type. As for being brainwashed, If i could get any box in my shop I wanted, it would be a NexPress S3000 with a NexGlosser, just don't have the facilities to handle it yet. So I got the best PRODUCTION device I could.

Oh, one more thing, your Oce 6000 is B/W, the discussion was about PRODUCTION COLOR, remember, you were saying the KM6501 could compete with the 8000AP AND iGen. I wonder if that woul include NexPress and Indigo too? Maybe the 6501 is the fastest, most productive engine in the WORLD!!!

 

[random]

Yeah this thread was about production color. The b&w story is over, oce won.

 

[gig0]

I don't think you read that Gigi0 is stuck with the 6501, therefore this is a moot point for him. He will understand in 2 or 3 years after the plastic parts start to crumble why the 6501 is so cheap. But on the bright side he can throw it to the curb for recycling!

For arguments sake, I wouldn't necessarily use the term 'stuck' since theres things called a service contract.


Again, the demo runs impressively matched up to our offset samples. I read a few comments from unhappy users but from what I've been reading, the common denominator seems to be half-ass support from a 3rd party, lack of training or they got the machine without a spectro. You get what you pay for, I guess...

 

[Craig]

You get what you pay for, I guess...

Exactly what many of us are trying to say!