Going from offset/web prepress to digital printing

[gig0]

The company I work for is approximately a $10 million/yr commercial offset/web printer that uses a Prinergy EVO workflow, which I've been responsible for managing besides working with the usual prepress applications, troubleshooting and networking.

Earlier this year, the company purchased a Konica 1050 B&W digital press and results have proven successful. Our marketing person has been in charge of this area along with someone else. As far as that end is concerned, we just fixed the 'bad' PDF's to make them print ready and dropped them in a hot folder where they would take care of the rest, that's it.

Today, the company has offered me a position to build a color workflow from the ground up for a proposed Konica c6501, which I agreed to (which just happened to be 2 hours before I take 2 weeks off for vacation!). Even though my digital printing experience is minimal, I don't feel I'm in over my head because I love a challenge, learning new things and ESPECIALLY love the fact I'm being given a blank canvas to work with. WOOHOO! They are putting this whole workflow on my shoulders and I'm up for it! I guess they want to offer customers the ability to give them quick turn around times on stuff that been printed (or going to print) on offset, yet they only need a a couple hundred copies ASAP, or just plain old quick turnaround times in general. Side note: I was BLOWN AWAY by the quality and color of the digital copy Konica set back to us that was used to match up against a sample from our offset press. Without a loop, I couldn't tell the difference! It appeared to me digital color printing has come a long way since the days of having that 'waxy' look. Incredible.

Since I will be the only person responsible for this, I would like to take full advantage of workflow automation, color calibration and adopt this 'lean manufacturing' philosophy I've been hearing about lately. I am kind of all over the place right now with ideas but need a little guidance to point me in the right direction to get me started. I need a foundation to build from.


So, uh, yeah... Where do I begin? heh

 

[random]

Your RIP selection is going to be pretty critical to your success. Having worked on all three options I will offer my two cents.

RIPS
IC-408 Dumb printer - Send a file to this rip and the big brother IC-305 and you will get the same result albeit slightly longer to process. You would use this if your workflow involved all the heavy stuff being done somewhere else and your basically chucking pages at the rip. Hot folders are not standard.

IC-302 Creo - This is an excellent rip for an operator that wants quick, simple and powerful features. The GUI is really friendly and novice operators will get hold of it pretty quick. It supports OPI/API ppml and other VDP systems, plays particularly well with Darwin. Creo add more features with upgrade such as RGB and CMYK color protection. The impose is really really good and comes as standard along with the spectro. Does not have a freeform equivalent.

IC-303/305 – This rip pretty much comes as the rip (no spectro monitor etc) but from what I gather you can match the spec of the creo for the same price. Hot folders are standard as are virtual printers, spot color matching, color protection, and a media manager where you can force individual colour pages to black and white. You would get this rip if you really wanted to screw every inch out of your machine. Typical Fiery workflow allows you the power to get the most as well as halftone simulation for your two color jobs or duo tones.

Engine -
Don’t buy one without a Paper feed unit and spec for tray heaters.

Finishing –
FS-607 - This is an adequate booklet finisher it won’t staple over 105gsm and can’t make a booklet wider than 311mm. I would expect this spec to change with the 700 being able to do this now.

FD-501 - Folding unit and PI. This unit has more folds than any unit on the market punches 2 and 4 holes as well as post inserts all sizes from both trays. The folding and punching can be used offline so stack up what you need folded or punched and let it go. It will fold each individual sheet.

SD-501 - Booklet maker from hell. These things will saddle stitch 200 pages! If you have seen a 200 page saddle stitch book you will see that it is actually bigger than practical. Also it can DLE fold 5 sheets together. This will make a booklet from SRA3 and edge trims.

FS-503 - 100 Sheet stapler, corner and double.

PB-501 – Perfect binder. This will bind up to 30mm but once again restricted to 311mm and has no edge guillotine so have a good one offline. Unlike other perfect binders you can confidently grab a sheet from the centre and it will hold.

You can get a just and output tray also. I think there is a GB punch on the horizon.

The engine doesn’t slow down for any of the options as they are built for your 1050 so should you find that something is a bit redundant you could possibly put it on the 1050. These model numbers may change with XX01’s as the options have been updated they may have a new number or be prefixed with an A. The FD,PB,FS,SD will remain the same.

Hope his helps.

 

[PineyBob]

I'm curious as to why the K-M was selected prior.

If the reasoning is that it's a great entry level product for the digital transition then I agree wholeheartedly.

If OTOH it's merely price driven then I think your comany is doing you a diservice. Just because it's the cheapest price doesn't mean it's the best solution.

I think Random has given you a very good primer.

 

[gig0]

Thanks random!

You brought up the most important point: choice of RIP. I think that's the million dollar question since that takes the most abuse. One of the questions that was thrown at me from the uppers during this meeting was choice of RIP; Creo or Fiery. I couldn't give a definitive answer because this whole proposal blindsided me and had zero research. This is why I'm asking questions now.....so I have answers later.

In our Prinergy 4.1 workflow, we've been switching back and forth from CPSI to APPE, which both have been proven reliable, yet APPE is the future, so as far as rendering intent, I prefer an APPE front end. Would that be correct? Does it matter? Is there an APPE front end for the Konika c6501 digital press?

 

[gig0]

I'm curious as to why the K-M was selected prior.

If the reasoning is that it's a great entry level product for the digital transition then I agree wholeheartedly.

If OTOH it's merely price driven then I think your comany is doing you a diservice. Just because it's the cheapest price doesn't mean it's the best solution.

I think Random has given you a very good primer.

I don't think price has anything to do with it. As I mentioned previously, I couldn't tell the Konika samples from the offset samples, unless I used a loop. Yes, it was that impressive. The digital market has finally matured.

 

[PineyBob]

All I'm saying is to check our any machine completely. They all look great in the demo room! It's the shop floor that concerns me.

I think it's getting to the point where high quality output is almost a given if everything else is correct.

The problems usually occur when the device regardless of manufacturer is placed in the wrong environment and essentially set up to fail.

The "Copier" business is it's own worst enemy in this regard and frankly can't be trusted. I know I managed a color team for 5 years and you should ha bve seen the deals they brought back. Finally got to the point where they were forbidden to sell to the printing community under penalty of termination. Myself and one of my colleagues sold to printers thereafter.

36 to 60 months is a long time and lots of lost money to live with if you make the wrong choices, Just do your homework and you'll do what is right for your company.

 

[random]

I don’t have any clients who have integrated there 6500 in a prinergy environment. I could only really comment if you have a situation were you doing a lot of document manipulation on the DFE such as imposition or pre-flight work.

It sounds like you have a pretty big setup so most of the manipulation is done before it gets to the rip so you would be wasting money on a FACI kit or something. Just be aware that IC-408 will ONLY support the FS-607 finishing option.

Gigo you will find many users on here that have unsubstantiated dislike for Konica. I can only assume that people don’t like change and Konica is forcing other vendors to make change to keep up ala X700.

I haven’t heard a valid argument yet why the c6500 is so bad and as you have seen for yourself it prints fantastically. Most complainants have been in the industry for years and have built relationships with incumbent vendors and the thought of starting again is firmly in the too hard basket.

The reliability of your 1050 has obviously led you to stick with Konica for color. I have few c6500 well over the million mark so you should not be concerned with reliability.

 

[gig0]

All I'm saying is to check our any machine completely. They all look great in the demo room! It's the shop floor that concerns me.

I think it's getting to the point where high quality output is almost a given if everything else is correct.

The problems usually occur when the device regardless of manufacturer is placed in the wrong environment and essentially set up to fail.

The "Copier" business is it's own worst enemy in this regard and frankly can't be trusted. I know I managed a color team for 5 years and you should ha bve seen the deals they brought back. Finally got to the point where they were forbidden to sell to the printing community under penalty of termination. Myself and one of my colleagues sold to printers thereafter.

36 to 60 months is a long time and lots of lost money to live with if you make the wrong choices, Just do your homework and you'll do what is right for your company.

Thanks Pineybob,

your response is exactly what I'm looking for and why I'm doing my homework. I agree with you 1000 percent as far as demo room samples. I know how it works. I'm very much aware of the promises made and is why I've kept i little folder on my hard drive called 'problem jobs' all these years.

 

[Craig]

gig0,
I'll tell you from experience, as an ink printer as well, your customers are going to expect you to be able to run the same paper digitally as you do on the offset. That means you will need a digital press that will "reliably" print the heaviest substrate on a regular bases, both simplex and duplex. I will also back up what PineyBob is trying to get across that Random will never admit. The KM 6501 is an "ENTRY" level production copier at best. It will work extremely well as long as you don't push a ton of 220-300gsm stock through it.

If you or your production manager can get out the crystal ball and predict what you will more than likely run on your digital device, then use this as a guide to which box you choose.

I can't help on the workflow, but will be more than happy to assist in any other way. The last thing I hate to see is you or anyone else get stuck with a box that will not do what you are expecting it to do. That will be nothing but a black eye for whatever company you choose. Don't forget about service, that will be as important as print quality.

 

[gig0]

I believe they are dead set on going with the c6501 and that, I believe, is the only thing I probably have no say. The reason being, they already asked various manufacturers to color match to a few different offset printed samples and I guess Konika came closest to their objective. But I will definitely keep all that info in mind as I'm doing my research. Thanks.

As far as RIPs are concerned, do any of them have the ability to process PDF files that are dropped in a hot folder? Meaning, there is no need to go through Acrobats print dialog for each job. Sorry if it seems like a dumb question. Bear with me, I just don't have the digital printing experience yet.

 

[random]

gig0,
I'll tell you from experience, as an ink printer as well, your customers are going to expect you to be able to run the same paper digitally as you do on the offset. That means you will need a digital press that will "reliably" print the heaviest substrate on a regular bases, both simplex and duplex. I will also back up what PineyBob is trying to get across that Random will never admit. The KM 6501 is an "ENTRY" level production copier at best. It will work extremely well as long as you don't push a ton of 220-300gsm stock through it.

This is pretty much what I was telling you about. Plenty of people on here actually OWN this model of printer and can give a more honest opinion rather than people who just hate Konica because they aren't Xerox. Craig knows someone at a bar who's uncle's wife's step daugters boyfriend was replaceing the water in a water cooler and saw a c6500 jam once at a printery. That offset paper thing is a laugh, from experience Xeroxs are the worst at running offset stocks.

Sorry gig0 for going OT but I think you can thank pineybob for going off on a tangent.

Of the shootouts we have had we have always been the most accurate with matching color.

I will get pineybob or craig to answer your question about the hotfolder thing cause they have the most experience with the c6500.........Hold on they have ***ABSOLUTELY*** no idea as they have never used a c6500.

The creo and IC-305 support hotfolders. The IC-408 does not as standard.

 

[Craig]

Randumb, you must have been hitting the Konica Minolta Kool-Aid again. I NEVER once mentioned another device other than the 6501. I don't hate Konica, I just don't feel it will fit the needs of someone who needs to run 220-300gsm on a regular basis. The paper paths are just to tight. Now if their application is text weight paper then by all means go for it! I even stated "It will work extremely well as long as you don't push a ton of 220-300gsm stock through it".

gigi0, this is why I insist on those who work for a manufacture state this up-front, everyone needs to be aware of their biases.

 

[random]

I think the key word here is feel. Craig doesn't feel the c6500 is up to it he doesn't know if it is or isn't. George Bush felt it was a good idea to invade Iraq. Hitler felt the sixth army was capable of taking Stalingrad. I know the sun is coming in the morning. Getting my drift here.

 

[Craig]

Random, how many 6500/6501's do you OWN? How does its operation or lack of operation effect your bottom line? You get paid whether a machine is working or not. It makes no difference to your wallet whether the machine stops 30 minutes after you walk away to go to the next call. Again, you are a technician, not an operator or better yet an owner. Your not the one who has to face the client and explain that their job is not up to specifications because you were sold a machine that will not do what the salesman promised. All you do is tell the owner of the box I'm sorry, it's not designed to do what you were sold. We as the poor suckers who believed the salesman and are stuck with a lease payment on a inadequate device.

 

[X33]

to gig0 :

to answer your original question, I would recommend a Xerox 700 Digital Color Press with CREO workflow.

why? going beyond the specifications of the machine :

1. It looks that your company is a fairly big commercial printer, I'm guessing that your growth in Digital Printing will be fast, and in a few years or maybe months you'll need more than an entry level machine. Above the Xerox 700, there are more than 7 Xerox models that can do it faster and better. Check it out at Digital Printing: Production Printers, Digital Printing Press Models, Large Format Printers ... find out what's the growing path other vendors have.

2. You mentioned a Prinergy workflow. Prinergy is owned by Kodak. And Kodak owns CREO. CREO has a seamless integration with Prinergy and Brisque workflows. So CREO I believe is the right choice for integration in your case (plus it has all the different tools for color management, workflow, and productivity you'll need). Ask your vendor if they have done an integration like this before. I believe Xerox has the experience to do so, plus in the US, CREO has a dedicated team of resources for Xerox customers.

3. Support. Starting with Digital COLOR Printing might require a lot of support. Find out who gives you the best in your area. Could be Xerox, or KM, who knows?

my 2 cents for now.

 

[PineyBob]

to gig0 :

to answer your original question, I would recommend a Xerox 700 Digital Color Press with CREO workflow.

why? going beyond the specifications of the machine :

1. It looks that your company is a fairly big commercial printer, I'm guessing that your growth in Digital Printing will be fast, and in a few years or maybe months you'll need more than an entry level machine. Above the Xerox 700, there are more than 7 Xerox models that can do it faster and better. Check it out at Digital Printing: Production Printers, Digital Printing Press Models, Large Format Printers ... find out what's the growing path other vendors have.

2. You mentioned a Prinergy workflow. Prinergy is owned by Kodak. And Kodak owns CREO. CREO has a seamless integration with Prinergy and Brisque workflows. So CREO I believe is the right choice for integration in your case (plus it has all the different tools for color management, workflow, and productivity you'll need). Ask your vendor if they have done an integration like this before. I believe Xerox has the experience to do so, plus in the US, CREO has a dedicated team of resources for Xerox customers.

3. Support. Starting with Digital COLOR Printing might require a lot of support. Find out who gives you the best in your area. Could be Xerox, or KM, who knows?

my 2 cents for now.

IMO number 3 is critical to your successful transition to a profitable digital operation. Whether you choose Xerox, Canon or Konica-Minolta you had best be confident that you will recieve prompt, knowledgable and accurate answers to your concerns as well as the service provider being able to support you on-site with quality techs.

Re: Item # 2 - Excellent point regarding Prinergy and Brisque being owned by Creo and the Kodak Connection. Given that you should also at least consider Kodak's version of the Canon 7000VP as you would have essentially a sole source solution on the color side.

It's true like it or don't that Xerox offers more solutions and has the track record in the industry. The flip side is you pay a premium for that is a number of ways. That's not a bad thing especially if you NEED a little hand holding in the begining. Nobody ever got fired for hiring Xerox was an old expression. Valid today? Not so sure.

HOt Folders - Hot Folders are folders that reside on a desktop (s) that are mapped to the RIP, usually with predefined parameters such as a 16 pg saddle stitch booklet. One simply copies the PDF file to the folder and the predefined parameters are applied to the file and it prints. Now there are "Filters" that allow you to send native file like Word and Powerpoint as well.

 

[random]

Random, how many 6500/6501's do you OWN? How does its operation or lack of operation effect your bottom line? You get paid whether a machine is working or not. It makes no difference to your wallet whether the machine stops 30 minutes after you walk away to go to the next call. Again, you are a technician, not an operator or better yet an owner. Your not the one who has to face the client and explain that their job is not up to specifications because you were sold a machine that will not do what the salesman promised. All you do is tell the owner of the box I'm sorry, it's not designed to do what you were sold. We as the poor suckers who believed the salesman and are stuck with a lease payment on a inadequate device.

Just because Xerox and Canon are feeding you BS doesn’t mean everyone is Craig. I do the demo’s with the reps so I’m pretty much held accountable if the machine doesn’t do what is said. It makes all the difference in my wallet if the machine doesn’t perform. This is a cut throat market if the machine doesn’t perform then Xerox or Canon are on it in a flash. Also you guys are worse than a sewing circle when it comes to talking about your machines.

Your applying your past experiences to a product you have no idea about again Craig.

Yes Xerox has lots of numbers but when it comes to actual machines it’s three. 252 based (includes 5000), 7000 based and Igen. Yep we have one but by the time you need more speed we will have the 85. Due to the development cycle we will be a step ahead again.

I would check the 700 http://printplanet.com/forums/digit...6394-feedback-wanted-xerox-700-a/5#post101668 thread before looking at a X700.

 

[GregNac19]

Random

Random

Random, why are you soo hung up on Xerox? Everyone needs to remember you are a technician. Have you ever even seen the Xerox's products you complain about. If I want to buy a car and can't decide on Ford or Toyota, I don't go see the mechanic for Ford and ask, "how well does the Tundra hold up?" If you say anything about Xerox it is surely a bias opinion. I can talk all day and give specs to why the 700 is a better box that the 6501 because I have real documentation. Not a made up drum issue you mentioned in a previous thread. Just remember some people here want real answers to real problems.
PS I might be able to get you a job with Xerox on a temp basis if you like.

 

[Craig]

PS I might be able to get you a job with Xerox on a temp basis if you like.

Like that will happen

Random is living the Konica Minolta life, that is the ONLY brand that has an answer to everyone needs.... the 6500/6501! After all it's claim to fame is no fuser oil... therefore it's the best!!

 

[gig0]

haha!

you guys crack me up! Both Random and Craigs posts are enlightening and informative. Thanks for the feedback fellas!

As far as I am concerned, I don't have a say in the machine. The KM c6501 is pretty much what I have to work with right now, and thats it. For the sake of argument, I have to build off that.

I still appreciate the good -and bad- feedback because it's MUCH BETTER than hearing it from a salesman. Thats exactly what I want to hear: REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE! Thank you!

BTW, I'm leaning towards the Creo RIP since our primary prepress workflow is Prinergy based, so it just makes sense.