Ink & Fountain solution Designed & Developed to work together

L

Lukew

Well-known member
As a printer is it to much to ask for the manufacturers of pressroom products, specifically Ink & Fountain solution. To design and develop a product or system what ever you want to call it that is built to work together, and not just design a product that may/may-not work with another product.

A fountain solution built to be used with multiple ink manufactures inks, there is always a trade off.
A ink set designed to be used with multiple fountain solutions, there is always a trade off

A fountain solution designed & developed to work with a specific ink, there should be less issues.

The issue we are having have been pointed out as a case of semipolymerizing of the ink. So now it is a trial & error long winded testing procedure to find an ink that works with the fountain solution.
We have a supplier come in with another ink and it fails, "Ow it must be the fountain solution etc etc etc"

I know a lot of supply companies will stock their main recommended Ink from one manufacturer & a fountain solution from another manufacturer. They offer this has a system that is meant to work. But there is always a trade off. As both products have been designed so they "sort of work with a wide range of products"

I just wish there was someone here that could walk in our door with a system that has been designed, developed & fine tuned through years of beta testing. Handing me products that will work in unison & not then stand there and blame one product against the other.


What are your thoughts, surely I'm not the only printer wondering this.
 
Lukew said:
We have a supplier come in with another ink and it fails, "Ow it must be the fountain solution etc etc etc"

.
Click to expand...

There must be many modes of failure that probably have different causes.

Can you be more specific about how the system fails.
 
You're lucky. Our shop is owned by a completely non-technical ex-salesman, who doesn't understand printing at all, only dollars. He decides what we're going to use based on price. He changes everything almost yearly, based on what price guarantees he can finagle out of our multiple suppliers. We have to "make it work" because "other shops do it" and 'the rep said it should work".

So you think you've got problems?
 
Lukew-

This would be ideal in a perfect world. The problem is no two presses/press rooms are the same. I have been involved in this type of testing to create the ideal combination. In my experience, once we were able to come up with an ideal combination in a few shops, there were always others where it wouldn't work. Therefore, it was no difference then what was already taking place.

Another problem that ink and fountain chemistry manufacturers run into, is recommending a specific ink or fountain solution. This always results in finger pointing by other suppliers when problems arise. The unfortunate truth is, you need to to spend the time and resources to find the correct ink fountain solution combination.

I'm unsure what you mean by semi-polymerizing the ink, to me this sounds like you are running UV inks. I recommend that you have your ink company obtain samples of different etch and alcohol substitutes, and do some lab testing. They can emulsify the ink and then check the before and after tack and viscosity to see what interactions take place. They should be able to duplicate the problems you are encountering on press. Once this is done they can narrow down a selection of products for you to test.

Good Luck
Bob
 
Bob Peterson said:
Lukew-

This would be ideal in a perfect world. The problem is no two presses/press rooms are the same. I have been involved in this type of testing to create the ideal combination. In my experience, once we were able to come up with an ideal combination in a few shops, there were always others where it wouldn't work. Therefore, it was no difference then what was already taking place.

Another problem that ink and fountain chemistry manufacturers run into, is recommending a specific ink or fountain solution. This always results in finger pointing by other suppliers when problems arise. The unfortunate truth is, you need to to spend the time and resources to find the correct ink fountain solution combination.

I'm unsure what you mean by semi-polymerizing the ink, to me this sounds like you are running UV inks. I recommend that you have your ink company obtain samples of different etch and alcohol substitutes, and do some lab testing. They can emulsify the ink and then check the before and after tack and viscosity to see what interactions take place. They should be able to duplicate the problems you are encountering on press. Once this is done they can narrow down a selection of products for you to test.

Good Luck
Bob
Click to expand...

Bob many oxidative inks dry by cross linking or polymerizing. These inks can reach a state of semi plastic, dried or polymerized and still somewhat travel down the ink train to plate to blanket to substrate. In this state they will exhibit what looks like non transfer or blinding or roller stripping or all three. This is caused by the inability of the ink to stay in a liquid state instead it goes back and forth between a liquid and a semisolid. The ink is unstable.
 
No we are not running UV, just conventional.
The problem started to arise, when we went from running high alcohol to either low or zero alcohol.
The issue that we are having is:
At high speed or runs over 5000 the polyester plates are wanting to ink up along the lead edge of the plate.
The back cylinders& blanket are picture framing massively
The blanket itself inside the paper size you have to stop and wipe as its getting ink build up & if left long enough will tint.
The rollers when you stop the machine in this state, look very odd. similar to sustainables explaination, it almost has a dried look to them.

Now I put two ink sets on that failed and also needed the fount dials turned up significantly at high speed Both are quick set inks.

I put an ink set on that has less dryer, and the picture framing goes away, but we need to run alcohol with it other wise the lead edge of the plate will ink up on longer runs

I put an ink in that has basically no dryers, but its not designed to run with normal fountain solutions, and I can run alcohol free with none of the problems arising.... Problem is that system isn't sold in this country.
 
Luke,

You face the same problem that Poly plate users have for years. On the Polyester plate surface, there isn't sufficient grain on the plate to effectively carry water and maintain the non-image area clean. At the same time, you find yourself trying to balance ink and water. A little one way results in dry up of the lead edge and a bit the other direction results in the color washing out.

There are several products that will help you in producing a stable water film on your plates. These additives are all Amorphous silica based and aid by binding to the plate surface and allowing the non-image area to carry water effectively, evenly, and stable during your various press pulls. It works with whatever fount you have preference to use.

Mitsubishi SLM AO2
Allied DTA (Might be discontinued)
Prisco SMA (Silver Master Additive)

All alcohol does is reduce the water's surface tension and allow water to run "Wetter". Once you pulled it out of the equation, you are now relying the true wetting characteristics of the fount to maintain the non-image area of the plate clean. Depending on how long you've ran IPA, your meters and water forms may be on the harder side, not allowing you to carry water at an acceptable level which your ink will tolerate.

The picture framing is coming from the excess ink and water on a short sheet not having anywhere else to go.

Happy to help!
 
ph in fountain solution

ph in fountain solution

We had a similar problem with a 3302 which was doing what you described. We changed the fountain to Nikken Extreme III and added a small amount of Stops It from Pacific Products. What it did was take the ph to 5.4 and that removed the lead edge build up and stopped the plate from inking up. We were using Braden Sutphin EP UV Dense black (laser safe) with RipIt (Xante now) platemaker with Mitsubishi poly plates.....

good luck.....
 
Asures said:
Luke,

You face the same problem that Poly plate users have for years. On the Polyester plate surface, there isn't sufficient grain on the plate to effectively carry water and maintain the non-image area clean. At the same time, you find yourself trying to balance ink and water. A little one way results in dry up of the lead edge and a bit the other direction results in the color washing out.

There are several products that will help you in producing a stable water film on your plates. These additives are all Amorphous silica based and aid by binding to the plate surface and allowing the non-image area to carry water effectively, evenly, and stable during your various press pulls. It works with whatever fount you have preference to use.

Mitsubishi SLM AO2
Allied DTA (Might be discontinued)
Prisco SMA (Silver Master Additive)

All alcohol does is reduce the water's surface tension and allow water to run "Wetter". Once you pulled it out of the equation, you are now relying the true wetting characteristics of the fount to maintain the non-image area of the plate clean. Depending on how long you've ran IPA, your meters and water forms may be on the harder side, not allowing you to carry water at an acceptable level which your ink will tolerate.

The picture framing is coming from the excess ink and water on a short sheet not having anywhere else to go.

Happy to help!
Click to expand...

Thank you for your input, I will chase that product down tomorrow. Hopefully someone stocks it here in Aus. The fount we are using now, is mean to get the surface tension to 32 but it obviously still doesn't respond/react the same way as high alcohol does.

On a side note I had a single colour black job so I put an ink I wish we could get here, onto the press "Habitat" Although this isn't designed to run with normal fountain solutions it ran perfectly. Zero lead edge scumming up, zero picture framing. and I was actually able to run my water dials down a huge amount compared to the other inks I have to use.
 
Lukew said:
I would assume this product isn't available in Aus. Is this product designed to run with any ink or is it developed to run with Habitat ink?
Click to expand...


This product was designed to run with all of the other inks available. Almost all of the other inks are very close in structure and properties. The additives used to tweak and or lower the cost is what differentiates them from each other. Otherwise they are pretty much the same. So it is quite easy to design a fountain solution that will work for both sheetfed and web under 1,500 feet per minute.
I know this will get a lot of negative feed back. The bottom line is that the product works is very cost competitive and simple to install just drain your tanks and mix according to instructions. There is nothing to change on your press.

Hard water, ro, soft water, filtered,distilled,tap it doesn't matter. The only time you might have a problem is if your city is adding a high concnetration polyphosphates and then you would have some trouble with any fountain solution ink combination.


Habitat is a system of ink and fountain solution designed to work together in total harmony and has nothing in common with any of the other inks and fountain solutions.
 
Sustainable said:
It is available if they want to pay the shipping for drums or totes.
Click to expand...
Don't think its viable to ship it to Aus, the only way would be to bring in a pallet load to spread the cost of sea shipping across the lot.
Air shipment of just one 5 gal drum would likely be more the $400 freight.

We currently pay around $260 per 20L drum of fount here, so I outlaying near double that..

Have been trying to chase down the fount additive that was recomended but its not proving easy...
 
Last edited:
Lukew said:
No we are not running UV, just conventional.
The problem started to arise, when we went from running high alcohol to either low or zero alcohol.
The issue that we are having is:
At high speed or runs over 5000 the polyester plates are wanting to ink up along the lead edge of the plate.
The back cylinders& blanket are picture framing massively
The blanket itself inside the paper size you have to stop and wipe as its getting ink build up & if left long enough will tint.
The rollers when you stop the machine in this state, look very odd. similar to sustainables explaination, it almost has a dried look to them.

Now I put two ink sets on that failed and also needed the fount dials turned up significantly at high speed Both are quick set inks.

I put an ink set on that has less dryer, and the picture framing goes away, but we need to run alcohol with it other wise the lead edge of the plate will ink up on longer runs

I put an ink in that has basically no dryers, but its not designed to run with normal fountain solutions, and I can run alcohol free with none of the problems arising.... Problem is that system isn't sold in this country.
Click to expand...

Lukew, it seems what we have here is a SERVICE problem. Either your ink supplier and/or your fount provider is deficient. Either they do not care enough about your business and the possible revenue loss or they do not possess enough technical know how to do the necessary lab work to SERVICE you. It doesn't matter what ink or fount you are running. What matters is that a technical person, preferably a fountain solution provider comes into your shop. They need to collect samples of your current consumables, ink and press ready fountain solution and go back to there lab. They need to do bench work, particularly emulsification studies between your ink and fount. There are any number of emulsification tests that can be performed; I know what they are, but will not go in detail about them. Hence, once this lab work is done, the Technician needs to present you with a report and the findings. Secondly, they need to offer a recommendation for a change to help your picture framing or any other problem you are having. See, it will be difficult for you to get this SERVICE. Damn shame sir, but I hope your consumable suppliers will invest the work that is needed to make your press and operations trouble free. Depending where you're at, I can recommend a fount provider who can fix you up. An ink supplier, I sincerely doubt it. The good technical staffing and experience people have been severed by most ink companies, leaving the printer to fend for themselves. Please let me know how I can be of further help and consultation. Trust me sir, I know how to do it the right way. D
 
Misfortune and Polyester Plates !!!!!!!!

Misfortune and Polyester Plates !!!!!!!!

Lukew,

Judging by your Posts, at every production step you have the misfortune of this or that problem.

Revert back to Presensitized Metal Plates - result 95% of Downtime Problems reduced.



Regards, Alois
 
Last edited:
If you are willing to try a new fount, take a look at ABC Allied's newest offering Titan Elite. You should be able to get it in Aus from Bermuda Printing Supplies.
Lukew said:
Don't think its viable to ship it to Aus, the only way would be to bring in a pallet load to spread the cost of sea shipping across the lot.
Air shipment of just one 5 gal drum would likely be more the $400 freight.

We currently pay around $260 per 20L drum of fount here, so I outlaying near double that..

Have been trying to chase down the fount additive that was recomended but its not proving easy...
Click to expand...
 
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