Ink Save

[gastonpresente]

Hi everyone,

Im reading information on Agfa´s Ink Save.
Anyone is using it? Whats your experience on cost saving ? (on what kind of work?)

Thanks for your time

Gaston

 

[1Pressman]

Gray componant replacemaent

Gray componant replacemaent

Hello,
If ithis is gray componant replacment, It will save on ink usage, AND marking , drying problems!

Hi everyone,

Im reading information on Agfa´s Ink Save.
Anyone is using it? Whats your experience on cost saving ? (on what kind of work?)

Thanks for your time

Gaston

 

[gordo]

Hi everyone,

Im reading information on Agfa´s Ink Save.
Anyone is using it? Whats your experience on cost saving ? (on what kind of work?)

Thanks for your time

Gaston

Some ideas for evaluating ink saving re-separation applications is available here: Quality In Print: ink saving
scroll down to the "GCR Reseparation for ink savings and color stability in offset printing" section. It's in 8 parts - backwards 'cause it's a blog.

best, gordon p

 

[mattbeals]

You could simply use a device link profile to get started with GCR/ink savings rather than jumping right into a full color server. A lot less expensive and may get you what you're looking for. I could build a sample device link for you and process a form or sample job for you.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Well Agfa does have a special way of handling/simulating overprint, wich is a little diferent from a device link. Agfa have an evaluation program where you can send a sample file and they get back to you. If you have Apogee 6 there is the device link option, and the re-purposing (if you have ApogeeColor) and InkSave. And in that order they are subtley different and advanced.

The Ink save has been described as an on the fly device link generator, and that is one of it's functions... with the exception of the special treatment of overprint.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

You could simply use a device link profile to get started with GCR/ink savings rather than jumping right into a full color server. A lot less expensive and may get you what you're looking for. I could build a sample device link for you and process a form or sample job for you.

Matt, sorry to jump in here, however for users of Photoshop CS4 or CS3 with the free plug from Alwan - these users can test a CMYK to CMYK device link profile for themselves...however it is "almost impossible" to find a sample DVLP for free download on the internet.

Could you build a DVLP for say SWOP v2 to ISO Coated so that end users can test this technology in their own premises with their workflow (Photoshop or RIP etc).

Stephen Marsh

 

[mattbeals]

PhotoShop CS4 users can use device links already. I would be happy to build a SWOP v2 to ISO Coated device link. I just need to know a few parameters such as how much GCR, ink limit, how to deal with primaries and secondaries, etc.

Having said that, there is no practical way to "test" a device link at a customer location. The problem is that the device link is "software" that I can't set to expire in the 30 days or how ever long. So I would have to process the files with the desired device link. Which I a perfectly happy to do.

Here's how I do it:
1) Images only - I use PhotoShop CS4 to process the images with varying levels of GCR in the device links.
2) PDF's - I use Callas pdfToolbox Server to process the PDF's when applying the device links. I can apply the device links to images only, non-images only, everything, images that exceed a certain ink limit value, etc. Which is one of the nice things about pdfToolbox Server versus some color servers and in RIP modules. We can be very specific about how we handle the application device links. Most, if not all, color servers and in RIP modules that I know of other than Alwan ECO apply a static profile to the entire page. I can do that or I can apply different links to different objects on the same page.

So if you have a sample PDF and an idea of what you want in the device link I would be happy to build one and apply it to your job. It will probably take longer to send back and forth than it will to build and apply the device link.

 

[mattbeals]

Did you mean ISO Coated to SWOP v2 or SWOP v2 to ISO Coated?

 

[Stephen Marsh]

> Having said that, there is no practical way to "test" a device link at a
> customer location. The problem is that the device link is "software"
> that I can't set to expire in the 30 days or how ever long.

Ah...Is there a legal clause in your DVLP creation software that prohibits you from publicly distributing a DVLP?

I don't have access to such technology at my current job, however I like to keep in touch with what is taking place in the industry.

Thanks for the offer of processing an image or a PDF, I'll get back to you when I have more time!

Cheers,

Stephen Marsh

 

[mattbeals]

The software I use is specifically licensed to sell device links as software. Other packages don't allow for that. So with that license I can't just give them away like that. Other packages have restrictions on selling the profiles without selling the profile software too. It varies depending on the software vendor. At any rate, send me some basic info and I'll run a sample test form for you.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Matt, firstly thanks for the conversation and offer to process some files.

To start, a simple image taken from this thread: ( 10 Pre-Press Tips For Perfect Print Publishing - Page 2 - PrintPlanet.com )

Attached is an image supplied by forum member "magnus" - the image has been taken from another topic thread and I hope that magnus will not mind me using this image in this non-commercial educational exercise. I have added some control bars at the foot to help in evaluation (I forgot to ask for these when magnus did his original test using Binuscan Colour Server).

The file is tagged with a Fogra39 Coated profile (330% total ink).

Your DVLP test should bring the total ink is down to a max of around 263% (originally 330%). I am not sure of the GCR, although more black is being used than in the original in lighter tones, you can follow the original URL from magnus to guess the amount of GCR if you like.

EDIT: NEW FILE UPLOADED (or just use the original from the original linked post, the colour bars are not critical)


Best,

Stephen Marsh

 

[gordo]

[SNIP]I have added some control bars at the foot to help in evaluation (I forgot to ask for these when magnus did his original test using Binuscan Colour Server).

A curious observation about the RGB patches.
The Red includes 1%C
The Green's yellow is 99%Y
The Blue includes 1%Y

Very small things - just wondering why.

best, gordon p

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Thanks Gordo, operator error...

The file is CMYK, however I used the eyedropper to quickly sample the colours from a standard Fogra media wedge file...

I will fix the file and upload it again...or perhaps this is due to JPEG compression in a CMYK file (scum dots?)

Stephen Marsh

 

[mattbeals]

what's the destination CMYK profile?

 

[Stephen Marsh]

To compare your DVLP method against the one performed by magnus using Binuscan - both should be targeted for ISO/Fogra 39 conditions, with lower total ink than described by Fogra 39 profile (which uses around 320%).

So...

The colorimetric intent is ISO/Fogra 39 - the same as the input, this is just about lowering the total ink limit to a max of say 265% and creating a heavier GCR component in the lighter colours.


Hope this makes sense,

Stephen Marsh

 

[mattbeals]

So I've got these parameters:
CCoated FOGRA39 (ISO12647-2_2004) to Coated FOGRA39 (ISO12647-2_2004) with a TAC of 265%. Is there a maximum black you want, 100, 95 or 93?

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Max K used by the binuscan default settings was 100K (98-99%), minimum value 1%.

The topic that I previously linked contains the Binuscan optimised file from magnus.


Stephen Marsh

 

[mattbeals]

I think this will do it. I used 85% GCR which is fairly aggressive. I set the option to preserve blacks and solid primaries. There is an option to leave registration blacks (100 C,M,Y & K) alone. There is also an option for blacks with under colors. You can preserve the under colors and black, leave black alone and process the under colors or process blacks and under colors normally. For this sample I set it to preserve black and process the under colors. Depending on what you are needing to do you would want to change those settings and therefore need a different device link.

 

[rich apollo]

I played with Agfa's Ink Save. Didn't care for the "black box" implementation. Also didn't like that we couldn't proof the file. The way it fit into our workflow it performed a color conversion just before screening and sending out to PrintDrive.

Can't speak to the effectiveness of their implementation. I was unwilling to put something out to press that changed between the proofing and plating.

 

[mattbeals]

This is where using a tool like callas pdfToolbox or Server fits very well into a workflow. Feed your workflow a pre-color managed document