JDF for Proofing

[Stephen Marsh]

Sending proofing files from Prinergy to a non Kodak proofing RIP.

Obviously, sending a refined PDF or a vector output PDF, still has the chance for differences between what Prinergy may RIP and what the proofing RIP may generate.

Rather than output of a vector PDF, we can of course output a contone raster PDF (or another raster format), however file sizes are of course huge compared to vector. At least then we know that Prinergy has RIPed the file.

A license upgrade would be required to process 1 bit TIFF data. Composite or separated raster is the only current option.

They are wishing to use JDF as output. The proofing RIP does not accept JDF.

Even if it could be fed JDF, is this simply not a flavour of XML, plain text - that would be pointing to the asset in Prinergy (likely the refined PDF or perhaps another “binary” format).

What does/would JDF bring to the party for a third party proofing RIP being fed via a hot folder?


Stephen Marsh

 

[DCurry]

Yeah, I don't know what JDF would give you other than a link to a PDF?

I've always sent 8-bit TIFFs to my proofers (currently using Prinergy and turning on LZW Compression). Guaranteed file integrity since the same engine that RIPs to plate also does the RIPping to proof. I've never noticed an issue with file sizes being too bad, but I've never really been concerned enough to look at it - I just see it as a "cost of doing business".

What res are you making your raster proofs? We do either 400ppi or 600ppi, just to help keep the type crisp. Anything higher than that doesn't look any better, in my experience. Also, the TIFFs are deleted from the proofer's computer regularly so it doesn't fill up.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Thanks Dan,

The original file was 1.5mb, the raster version was 325mb. This was not a full imposed sheet, I am expecting 2-3gb sheet sizes… I have not yet looked at lossless compression, which should of course help with press sheets which contain lots of white.

I will see if they can use the same process template as they would for plating, so we pickup the same settings, then simply change the file format to a composite contone 8 bit. I would use 720x720 to match the proofing RIP resolution, however it could be worth checking 600ppi to see if the speed/size is a better trade off with no loss of visual fidelity.

Initial test of Raster PDF was good, it was a 5 colour job and it was possible to map the spot to the lookup at the RIP etc.

I will be doing tests next week with the client.

I too don’t think that file sizes should be much of an issue in reality. Print time should be the same, it is probably just going to be file transfer and processing times before the inkjet fires up. As this will be happening in the background, there should be no real operator concerns, they just send the impo to output.


Stephen Marsh

 

[benstarr]

I would use 720x720 to match the proofing RIP resolution, however it could be worth checking 600ppi to see if the speed/size is a better trade off with no loss of visual fidelity.

If the files at 720x720 are still too big to manage. I'd suggest going to 360x360 (Assuming you're printing on an Epson) this will be much smaller and I don't think you'll have any quality issues plus you won't have to worry about resampling.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

If the files at 720x720 are still too big to manage. I'd suggest going to 360x360 (Assuming you're printing on an Epson) this will be much smaller and I don't think you'll have any quality issues plus you won't have to worry about resampling.

I’ll give this a try benstarr and compare fine rules and small positive/negative text etc. I probably would have been snobby and snubbed 360ppi renders out of hand, however it is worth a try. Thanks for your input.


Stephen Marsh

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Can somebody please copy/paste the *exact* path name from their Prinergy output process template to a third party proof or plate hotfolder? Having issues with naming conventions, would just like to double check, Prinergy is complaining that there is no access to the drive, however it can be written to successfully outside of Prinergy, so it is either sharing permissions (which have been set), naming convention, UNC path etc.


Stephen Marsh

 

[Johu]

Hi Stephen,
I've mostly used to Screen Trueflow/Equios and there if I want to create proofs to an external (unc) path I've noticed that the easiest way of getting rid of all permissions issues is to create the same user that Prinergy uses as a process to the external proofing rip. Of course the password also needs to be the same.
I fought with these permission issues for so long time until I realized that by having the same user on both ends takes all that pain away

Going a bit back on this thread. I use multiple different file formats depending on licenses and the proofing rip. Obviously the most convenient file format is vector PDF because of it portability. On Screens systems I have also used contone tiff (in case of CMYK only), separated contone TIFF (with Spot colors), but nowadays I am mostly using Proof PDF which is basically a multichannel JPEG in a PDF wrapper. So it is compressed multichannel bitmap file. While creating the file I take in to consideration the proofer. Epson 360/720 and Canon 300/600 dpi. Mostly even the lower resolutions are quite usable if there is anti aliasing used. Then fine lines and fonts still look good even if the resolution is low for vector data.

JDF in my opinion gives nothing extra in terms of just proofing, unless you want to proof imposed pages with original PDF. Meaning that the JDF part will carry the imposition info whilst the actual data proofed comes from the original or refined single page document. Then the proofers job is to impose the pages and proof the resulting sheet.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Thanks Johu!

Yes, the Prinergy server ARAXI user/password has been setup on the ORIS RIP as an admin user and has also been added the the administrators group.

It has also been explicitly set in permissions for sharing on the hot folders.

However Prinergy still can’t write directly to the folder. We can drag and drop files into the hotfolder without issues.

As we have tried almost everything to do with permissions/access – it may be naming convention/path names that are the issue.

I am hoping that a Prinergy user can simply copy/paste a path out of Workshop so that I can see if there is anything obvious.


Stephen Marsh

Hi Stephen,
I've mostly used to Screen Trueflow/Equios and there if I want to create proofs to an external (unc) path I've noticed that the easiest way of getting rid of all permissions issues is to create the same user that Prinergy uses as a process to the external proofing rip. Of course the password also needs to be the same.
I fought with these permission issues for so long time until I realized that by having the same user on both ends takes all that pain away

Going a bit back on this thread. I use multiple different file formats depending on licenses and the proofing rip. Obviously the most convenient file format is vector PDF because of it portability. On Screens systems I have also used contone tiff (in case of CMYK only), separated contone TIFF (with Spot colors), but nowadays I am mostly using Proof PDF which is basically a multichannel JPEG in a PDF wrapper. So it is compressed multichannel bitmap file. While creating the file I take in to consideration the proofer. Epson 360/720 and Canon 300/600 dpi. Mostly even the lower resolutions are quite usable if there is anti aliasing used. Then fine lines and fonts still look good even if the resolution is low for vector data.

JDF in my opinion gives nothing extra in terms of just proofing, unless you want to proof imposed pages with original PDF. Meaning that the JDF part will carry the imposition info whilst the actual data proofed comes from the original or refined single page document. Then the proofers job is to impose the pages and proof the resulting sheet.

 

[Johu]

Hi Stephen,
I have several installations with Prinergy and Oris with out any issues. The only things that comes to mind is, are pathnames too long? I've seen that happen even today. So I tend to share my ORIS folder just with a name SPOOL under which folder I have my usual Isocoated v2 and such folders.
One thing to check is that your path ends with \

so that instead
\\ORISRIP\SPOOL\Isocoated v2

you would have
\\ORISRIP\SPOOL\Isocoated v2\

That is if you have a space in your folder name.

Which version of ORIS are you running? Is it Color tuner or Color Tuner // Web?

Oh, one more thing is the password for araxi still the usual four letter name?
I mean few years back I remember a case where we could only get the system to write when we had 6 letters in the password. That was some stupid windows thing. This of course is not good couase you probably don't want to touch the default password.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Hi Stephen,
I have several installations with Prinergy and Oris with out any issues. The only things that comes to mind is, are pathnames too long? I've seen that happen even today. So I tend to share my ORIS folder just with a name SPOOL under which folder I have my usual Isocoated v2 and such folders.
One thing to check is that your path ends with \

so that instead
\\ORISRIP\SPOOL\Isocoated v2

you would have
\\ORISRIP\SPOOL\Isocoated v2\

That is if you have a space in your folder name.

Which version of ORIS are you running? Is it Color tuner or Color Tuner // Web?

Oh, one more thing is the password for araxi still the usual four letter name?
I mean few years back I remember a case where we could only get the system to write when we had 6 letters in the password. That was some stupid windows thing. This of course is not good couase you probably don't want to touch the default password.

Excellent Johu!

There were word spaces, however I don’t know if they setup an ending slash… Their I.T. does not allow internet access on the workstations so I can’t remote in, so I am mostly flying blind as to what they are inputting into Workshop, I can’t double check in person and a lot is missed on the phone. That is a great tip though!

Today I removed all word spaces in the proofer and path names and replaced them with hyphens (the computer name previously had hyphens and no spaces). With luck we will see if removing the word spaces did the trick. If this did work, I will get them to try another folder using word spaces and an end slash, just to confirm.

Using the latest version CTW 3.0

As you know, by default ORIS creates a default C:\Watched Folder location, using word spaces.


Stephen Marsh

 

[DCurry]

I'm outputting to a destination folder using spaces and not ending with a slash:

AraxiVolume_hw23254-36_J/EPSON_PROOFER/_9890_42inch HOT on HW23254-36

"EPSON_PROOFER" is a folder that lives on the AraxiVolume, so it's not really sending to a device - just a folder on the network. My proofing RIP looks at that folder for input.

 

[Johu]

Hi Dan,
your path is not an UNC path. What I understand about it is that you are outputting to a mounted drive which makes it much easier. As you can see your path contains slash marks not backslash marks like on an UNC path.
Mounted drives are easier to work with as they work more or less like internal drives.

 

[jminrod]

If you are not going the UNC path and really are trying the hotfolder on a server you may need to mount the drive one time on the primary after creating the link in prinergy administrator. We just spent days going back and forth with new epsons. Had the same exact set up as h eother 2 just needed new hot folders and the only way to get it back was to mount the drive on the primary and then it seen the hotfolder shares from the process templates in prinergy.

 

[gig0]

\\PTR4300SHOOTER\HotFolders\629

Besides duplicating the Prinergy Administrator account and creo password on the remote workstation, try simplifying the path. We learned the hard way as well.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Thank you for all of your replies.

To summarise, I can do things two ways:

1) Keep attempting to get the Prinergy process template to write to the RIP watched folder using a UNC path
2) Setup a folder on the Prinergy server to act as the destination folder, then map this as a local drive on the RIP as the watched folder

Valuable feedback from all, thank you!


Stephen Marsh

 

[Johu]

Thank you for all of your replies.

To summarise, I can do things two ways:

1) Keep attempting to get the Prinergy process template to write to the RIP watched folder using a UNC path
2) Setup a folder on the Prinergy server to act as the destination folder, then map this as a local drive on the RIP as the watched folder

Valuable feedback from all, thank you!


Stephen Marsh

Hi Stephen,
there is a thrid option as well.
This is to mount the destination root folder, watched folder in your case, to Prinergy. Then you could actually browse to the desired directory.

I have used your option two myself as well, but I dislike it because once Prinergy is done outputting the file to a local folder it thinks that everything is good. It is the up to the mover software to take care of moving the file to the proofer rip folder. Again there are permission issues and if for some reason the trasportation does not go through you have no feed back from the system. Prinergy thinks everything is going as planned and Oris just sits and waits for the files. You actually need to go to the mover software and see what is going on. IMHO this option should be your last resort.

Anyway I do feel for you cause I've been there and I've done that. And there were times when my head was sore from banging it to the brick wall called "user permissions"

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Thanks Johu and to those that answered previously…

It appears that when I setup the original ARAXI account on the ORIS RIP, I missed that Windows 7 defaults to the wrong setting (user must change password at next login), when it should be set to (password never expires). In hindsight, I don’t know how I missed it! :]

There may also have been some other issues with permissions, however I think that this may have been the main problem.

I am still waiting to see if this resolves the issue in full, this is not put to bed yet, however things appear to be promising.

Local Kodak Support did a great job on this!

I have documented this process with some annotated screen captures.


Stephen Marsh

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Everything is now flowing in great from Prinergy to the ORIS watched folder!

Also found that using simple/basic sharing in Windows 7 does not cut it, one should use the “advanced” file sharing to explicitly setup permissions and security for the Administrators group (also explicitly added the ARAXI user, just in case, even though it is in the Administrators group).


Stephen Marsh

 

[gig0]

Windows 7 is sub menu hell.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Windows 7 is sub menu hell.

Yeah, too many critical options hidden away – however this always seems to be the case on any OS!


Stephen Marsh