KM C7000 vs RICOH C751EX

hey lfeton, thanks for the heads up on the kodak image... but my google-fu must be weak as I can't seem to find a decent image with 4 babies?

Anyone got a link? I'm scrambling to get my sample images together as I really want to punish the demo guys!

I did not think to put my gradient strips in different directions, would be interesting to see if there are differences between front-to-back and leading-to-trailing.

lfeton, those images are the next level in machines compared to the c7000/xerox 700/ricoh 651 machines. But I'm dying to know.. which one has near indigo quality?!
 
alu said:
hey lfeton, thanks for the heads up on the kodak image... but my google-fu must be weak as I can't seem to find a decent image with 4 babies?

Anyone got a link? I'm scrambling to get my sample images together as I really want to punish the demo guys!

I did not think to put my gradient strips in different directions, would be interesting to see if there are differences between front-to-back and leading-to-trailing.

lfeton, those images are the next level in machines compared to the c7000/xerox 700/ricoh 651 machines. But I'm dying to know.. which one has near indigo quality?!
Click to expand...


I think the original came from a sample image on a Kodak photodisk, so there may be some copyright issues to be wary of. It's unlikely that Kodak would give 2 hoots if you are just using it for images to test printers, but you never know. I found it while trawling for images to test skin tones and it's been incorporated into loads of composites like this one:
Printing Insights #48

Hope that helps.

Regarding "which one has near indigo quality", I really don't want to trigger one of those tedious "mine is better than yours" arguments that this board tends to descend into. They're all good, and if you need that class of machine, you need to evaluate them all.
 
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Had a quick demo.. ran all the stock I brought fine. Quality was good, I will do more comparisons with c7000 output this week.

One disappointment was large black solids.. very mottled as you can see the paper come through. We tried pure black, rich black, full colour black, no difference. Heavy or light stock didn't make a difference. I was convinced it had something to do with that particular unit although the demo guys thought that just might be how the 651ex lays down black solids. My c6500 lays down *beautiful* full colour black... *shrug*.

Will be going back for a more focused demo again soon, but hope they come up with an answer about that one issue.
 
I have not had a problem with black solids so far, so yes I would say they need to look at that machine. Did you try it on coated stock? I have almost a complete reverse I just ran on 12 x 18 stock (coated) and it is fine.
 
oh, this is good news...
We tried a #3 coated stock and also on Futura gloss, cover or text weights, it was really weak. I thought for sure it was the machine. I will make sure I look at another machine.
 
retested today, the blacks are nice and solid.

lots of streaks on the output, I would like to try with a new fuser. In my understanding, the fuser might be more prone to streaking because it is softer than what I am used to with the c6500?

does anyone know what coating options are available for ricoh toner prints?
 
I use 2 fusers, one for 13inch stock and one for 11&12 stock. if you don’t you get the fuser streaks on the edges. You know a big part of any machine is the support and service you get, if these guys are allowing things like this to go on in a demo I would be leery no matter how good the machine. One of the keys for me going with the Ricoh over Konica was that I have known the service techs for years and they are a good group(here), you may want to really check that.
 
We had our C751EX installed on 12/12, and I have ran it for the past 8 days, putting close to 60k meter clicks on it. So far I'm very impressed, as it blows our old Ricoh C700 clear away. I have ran tons of 28# 8.5x11 and 11x17 duplexed, 80# 11x17 full coverage posters, and a big 8k sheet run of 8.5x11 10 point C1S Kromekote duplexed. No service calls thus far, the print quality has not degraded, and the toners lasted beween 45k-58k clicks, most of the jobs had average coverage. The only print quality fault I saw thus far was VERY light banding on a yellow/orange solid on the coated side of the 10 pt. job, but that stock has been a pain for me even back to my offset press days. 11x17 posters were type reversed from solid black and they came out beautiful. Color on the machine was extremely consistent over long runs, the best I have seen on a color digital machine. For those familiar with Fiery, the C751 is very easy and friendly to operate, and is very quiet. The new Fiery has some very cool features, probably the best is the "Image enhance visual editor." This lets you enhance photos on a document page without altering other images on the page. I'm still playing with the new Fiery features.

The installation of the machine took about one solid day. Sales did not note to us that the machine has to be placed at least 30 inches away from a wall on the back side for access to rear areas of the machine and cooling purposes (There is a radiator in the back, and the machine uses automotive type antifreeze to cool its developer housings. There is also a blower for this radiator that does throw out quite a bit of heat when it kicks on.) The rear machine access slowed our installation down as we changed the place where we put the machine. Just something to consider when looking at one.

So far, so good. I might be able to answer some questions too if anyone has some.

Pix of our C751EX:

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...0751_288314487855125_1204870_1446853099_n.jpg

-Mark-
 
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Very nice Mark! We also ordered one, its coming half January.

Would be cool if you could post more pictures (maybe more from inside and also higher resolution). And a video would make it perfect.
 
Pix was just quick shot from my camera phone. If I remember to bring my good camera in to work tomorrow, I'll take some shots inside the print engine area. Neatest "visible" points are sheet register area and the post fuser decurler roller.

-Mark-
 
Thanks for telling us your experience Mark.

Have you laminated any of your prints yet? Have you had any issues with scratching off of toner (bad adhesion)? I'm guessing no, but that's the line I'm getting from the local sales rep for a competing company.

Sounds like your posters may not have needed high sheet to sheet registration. I did some of my own tests, by running the same sheets twice through the unit and the registration wasn't really all that hot. Not as great as the hype seems to be..

Thanks
 
I have laminated prints and tested for adhesion, we have had no problems as of yet. I have not run any jobs where I had to feed sheets back through, so far I have duplexed everything and registration is one of the machines strong points.
 
Again excuse my camera phone photos, but it's just to give you the idea of some of the things you don't see in the brochures.

Inside front covers:

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...0704_288314487855125_1206319_1352763506_n.jpg

Register area. Uses stepper motor actuated ball bearing pull side guide and front "head stops."

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...254143_288314487855125_1206316_98012362_n.jpg

Decurler bar. (Silver roller to right of gray rubber roller) Heat sink is on end of this, which extends in to rear cooling area of the machine. This works very well.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...87408_288314487855125_1206317_731183088_n.jpg

I have had no toner adhesion problems whatsoever on any of the stocks I've printed on thus far. I only tried testing laminating this morning, as I didn't have an opportunity to try it yet. No trouble at all there either, on a test with 100# coated cover, printed both sides, ran through our 300 degree roll laminator.

Registration is good- as good as I have seen on this type of machine, this witnessed on the duplexed 10 pt Kromekote job where I cut out of crop marks. Let's say consistently within a lines width or two. It is NOT dot-on-dot perfect, and I would not expect that from any of these types of machines. On a printing press like a Heidelberg you have an infinite number of register board adjustments you can make to insure perfect sheet registration on any paper stock. It is impossible to build a "pushbutton" digital machine that will register perfect on every type of paper, so I wouldn't expect it. You don't want it bouncing a mile, but a line or two is acceptable for these machines in my book. Duplex registration on this machine I think is excellent.

The C751 isn't perfect all around, no one printing machine ever is. I can't make any claims on the C751's reliabilty yet either, which is of utmost concern to most including myself. I will say it's very well engineered, and is capable of producing excellent looking prints at a good rate of speed.

-Mark-
 
Hey Mark,
Thanks a lot for your review, it's really helpful.

MarkPalmer said:
The C751 isn't perfect all around, no one printing machine ever is. I can't make any claims on the C751's reliabilty yet either, which is of utmost concern to most including myself. I will say it's very well engineered, and is capable of producing excellent looking prints at a good rate of speed.

-Mark-
Click to expand...

What would you say are the main points of this machine that make it not perfect? :)

I know I'm really reaching here, but I'm coming against a lot of FUD from other sales agents and I'm just trying to see which are legitimate concerns, and which are BS. Unfortunately with a new machine like this.. there is not much of a track record to look at.

Thanks
 
alu said:
Hey Mark,
Thanks a lot for your review, it's really helpful.



What would you say are the main points of this machine that make it not perfect? :)

I know I'm really reaching here, but I'm coming against a lot of FUD from other sales agents and I'm just trying to see which are legitimate concerns, and which are BS. Unfortunately with a new machine like this.. there is not much of a track record to look at.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Thus far, the C751 lives up to the things that Ricoh claims it is capable of doing. It's not perfect in the sense of perfect register, 100% perfect print quality, (evidenced by the slight banding on one job), or other attributes one might think of when comparing the prints to those printed off the highest quality offset presses. But to be fair, that's an apples to oranges comparison equipment wise. As far as digital light production machines go, the C751 is probably as good as they come right now in a market where its real hard to compare one digital machine of similar capabilties to another. My first 65k clicks off the C751 have been a pleasant experience, and I hope it stays that way.

-Mark-
 
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