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KM C7000 vs RICOH C751EX

You should get out of the shop Neleson and consider a job in sales or marketing, you sound just like a manufacturer's rep (I oughta know)!

Hi,



My vote goes for KM C7000. Konica Minolta presents three versions of an innovative, high speed colour digital system that takes image quality and consistency to new heights. It’s amazing imaging capabilities in combination with a sturdy construction, professional feature set and attractive affordability make this the ideal entry level print production solution for CRD’s, print providers and professionals in advertising agencies.
 
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I am trying to come to a conclusion on km 6000/7000 vs the RICOH 751ex. The Ricoh 751ex prints perfectly straight but is a new product. Can the skewing and registration be corrected on these machines or is this a defect that they are telling the purchaser they have to live with after they purchase. I read techs saying that other techs dont know what they are doing and it can be fixed. My km6500 has never been fixed and been told this is acceptable. Im confused what is the real answer to this issue.

The 751 is new but a lot of it was borrowed from the c900 and c901 so it's not a totally unproven design. If you want good registration that part of the machine was used in the c900 and c901 and it works great.
 
There is an adjustment for skew, and I'm very familiar with both the Xerox 700 and the KM C7000 - you should be getting similar registration from both.

Please read through this thoroughly even if you've been walked through this process as there are small details that may be causing the issue you are having. Once you are familiar with it it will not take more than 5-10 minutes and you won't have to do it very often once it is set up properly in the media catalog. PM me with any questions.

The C6000/C7000 have the ability to tie all of the registration settings I'm about to walk through to individual media catalog entries. If you do not currently operate using a paper catalog I would suggest you set one up so you can save the proper registration settings for that paper.

In the PF602, loosen the side guides and place 5 or so sheets in the drawer and keep the drawer open - do not tighten the side guides. On the left side of the drawer, you will see a blue tie-down knob that can slide laterally inside a groove. When left loose, the knob will be forced to one side of the groove - slide it to the other side and tighten it to lock it in place. Close the drawer. You'll hear the tray raising up and once it does, open the drawer and it will be locked in the feeding position. Tighten the side guides to be firm enough against the sheets to not have any lateral movement if you place your hand on it and try to move it, but make sure it is not so tight that it is bowing the paper. Loosen the blue knob on the left side to drop the tray back down and load the rest of your stock. This will eliminate lateral movement or whipping at the feeding position.

Once the paper is loaded, go to the "Paper Settings" menu on the UI, hit "Change Set", and hit "Both Sides Adj". There are adjustments for Magnification, Image Shift, and Registration Loop which should all be set to 0 if you've never done this before. You'll see options for "Front" and "Back" along the top, keep it set on "Front" and hit "Chart Adjustment". On the next screen, select "Print Mode" on the bottom. You can select a quantity of sheets by using the number pad hard buttons below the touch screen on the UI - YOU MUST PRINT AT LEAST 3 SHEETS AND TAKE MEASUREMENTS FROM THE THIRD SHEET to properly adjust registration, as it takes 2 sheets to actively register to the paper position. Once the fuser comes to temp the "Start" button will turn blue, hit it, and grab the top sheet. With a mm ruler, measure each line to either where it intersects with the adjacent line or to the edge of the sheet if it does not intersect. Input these measurements and hit "Adjustment Start". This will center the image on the sheet and adjust for proper magnification of the image. When you get back to the Both Sides menu you'll see the 0's have been automatically changed to the proper adjustment.

From the Both Sides menu, hit the "Back" button and repeat the chart adjustment process. After properly centering and scaling the image with the front chart adjustment, the back chart adjustment will allow you to align the back side to the front side (its basically a cross hair in each corner and you input how far off the back is from the front on the X and Y axis in each corner). This measurement is additive, so if you don't get it right the first time you can print out another set of charts to tweak it further. If you can get one corner lined up and see skew in the other 3, move on to the Registration Loop adjustment below.

Once you get back to the Both Sides Menu, the last adjustment is the "Registration Loop" setting. The Registration Loop Adjustment will allow you to adjust skew. The registration unit has 2 sets of nip rollers - a drive roller that is continuously feeding into a registration roller that is timed to turn on and off intermittently. The timing is such that the drive roller will feed a sheet into the stationary registration roller which lags prior to feeding. As the drive rollers continue to feed against the stationary registration roller, it will cause the paper to "loop" or rise up in the center and snap perpendicular to the registration roller eliminating skew in paper. This concept is very similar to a gate system if you are familiar. When set at "0", heavier paper will simply pass through the roller system without snapping. If set too high, you will see wrinkling or jamming in the registration unit as the paper won't be able to feed through it, so you want to set it high enough to effect skew but not so high that the paper can't feed.

To save these to the paper catalog entry (as they will be different for 80# text vs. 100# cover for obvious reasons), hit "Register", pick the name of the paper you are working on if it is already created to overwrite it, or type the name of the paper if it is your first time, and save it. If you've done these adjustments and you still get poor registration, you need to escalate it through your local service department.
I have a C6000 and have been using this method since new, you can get the registration spot on, a tip though for both sides adjustment is to use a pin and pierce the paper on the crosshairs and line up the hole on the other side. Thanks for the paper catalog tip, I will check that out tomorrow.
 
thx for your knowledge, I think you maybe a tech of konica..and you are better than what I met before...they even don't know how the registration loop affect on different weight papre...
My C7000 was installed last Friday. But not very happy with it, as we got the skewed image soon...konica tech came to solve it, but it seems he has no patient to do that work,every time he did some changes and got a result, he showed to me and then asked whether I were satisfied...but everytime the image was skewed..
then I told him, I got this new machine and just want to solve this problem which always happened on my old C6500, the skewed image...
Then after another 30 mins, he showed to me the result, not very good, but better than before..I think that maybe his limit...so I let him go...

I will try what you said tomorrow.
thx

Thanks for the compliment. How did this work out? Keep in mind these are meant to be operator adjustments on the C7000 so you don't need to have service in to adjust once you get the hang of it, and once it is dialed in the registration will hold.
 
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Thanks for the compliment, I'm actually a sales specialist on the Production Print team. How did this work out? Keep in mind these are meant to be operator adjustments on the C7000 so you don't need to have service in to adjust once you get the hang of it, and once ir is dialed in the registration will hold. If you don't mind me asking, are you working with KMBS or a KM dealer?

I'm just a digital print shop owner and got a new c7000 this month.
Haven't got any training from Konica yet, but I have learned something from this post and Konica tech.
Now the skewed image sometimes happen on 300gsm paper, do you have any way to solve that?
 
I'm just a digital print shop owner and got a new c7000 this month.
Haven't got any training from Konica yet, but I have learned something from this post and Konica tech.
Now the skewed image sometimes happen on 300gsm paper, do you have any way to solve that?

Not specifically, but as I had mentioned the registration settings will typically vary from media to media which is why I suggest always saving the best settings under a media catalog entry for that paper. For example the settings that work for 100# text usually wont be the best for 100# cover. In relation to skew, it is entirely dependent on the side guides in the drawer being set properly at the feeding position and the registration loop being set high enough to snap the paper perpendicular to the registration roller but not so high that it causes jams in the registration unit. If all of this is done it may just be a matter of tweaking the settings. Since you can save these settings back to the media catalog, it saves you from having to tweak these settings more than once though.
 
Thank you for such a simple explanation of the procedure which not many people know about.

I am still confused as to the loop adjustment to be applied to front side or the back side, as the option for loop adjustment is available for both the sides?

Regards
 
today when I print some 300gsm paper, I adjust the front side loop to +30 and back side loop to -30...The result is very good..
 
Any updates from people who are running the 651/751 ricoh machine?

Seems like the general consensus is that the konica will give you slightly better image quality, but the ricoh will beat it in registration.
 
Well I wanted to wait till after a few long runs before I really started reporting much. On the fuser issue Prajna your are correct, it only helps with mixed media and rated speed running. The liquid cooling is only on the developer, not the fuser, it has cooling fins off the back for cooling the fuser. For breaking down I have 2 fusers and they said I could have 3 if I wanted, so if it goes down I'll just stick in another and keep running.

1. Quality
Line, text, screens, solids are excellent, and I mean really good.
Photographs - well I have seen better, but not much, so I will not be loosing much if any work on this.
Besides I am still figuring out how to tweak them.
2. Stocks
So far it eats coated and and cover with no problems. I have duplex 271gsm with out issue, yes I know rated is 256gsm. That is one feature I really like, not only can you lie to it, but in the advance paper settings you can adjust the voltage and fusing temp to what the paper actually is, that way it runs properly. I did initially have trouble running stocks below 100lb text, but that was a minor issue that they now have straightened out.
3. Registration
Absolutely the best I have ever seen! I knew I was having trouble with registration and skewing (Konica) but until I started running this I really did not know how bad it was, just the time and money that will save me is amazing.
4. Speed
I went form the old KM Pro 500 (50ppm) to the 651 (65ppm) which on the surface is not a big jump. However I run a lot of coated and cover stock and the speed difference is really noticeable. ie I took a 2 hour job last week and ran it in @ 30 min., partly because of the LCT (my KM didn't have) and engine speed.

I should have a couple long runs coming up an I will let you know how that goes.

This is simply a copy and paste of my reply on the other thread, As for image quality comment I would argue it depends on the image they both have strengths and weakness.
 
Thanks PrintTriks,

I have a handful of 'test' files that I have been giving to Konica Xerox and Canon. Do you have an image or a hint as to what type of image the Ricoh has problems with?

How are gray gradients, and really light tints?

Thanks,
 
Gradients, Light tints, fine lines are great. Where the konica seems to be better is in photos of people, The Ricoh seems to for lack of a better description, pull the contrast too tight. For instance I have a dinning menu I ran on both machines, the front is a close up photo of hamburger with an inset of people eating in the restaurant. Well the Ricoh makes the hamburger better but the inset looks better on the Konica. When I was doing a blind test of printed samples most could not tell the difference if I showed them samples 1 at a time. I had one employee that on one sample could always pick the Konica, when I finally asked her how she said she could see the wrinkles on a guys forehead and it made him look older. His photo was smoother and looked better of the Konica, sad thing is I know the guy.... he really does have the deep wrinkles on his fore head :)
 
Hey Printriks thanks for the info.

Do you have an external fiery? I'm assuming the options are similar to my setup with my c6500...

would trying different dot/line patterns (dot1, dot2, line1, line2) help?

Finally, would you be willing to offer up that file (remove any sensitive data if necessary) so that I can go and challenge the local Ricoh guys with it when I go for my demo?

Thanks
 
Yes, I have the E 41A with the full Graphics Arts Package. Yes, I have already found ways to soften pictures and make them look better, I will take a look at the file and see if I can edit enough and send it to you. PM me your location, nothing personal but I would not think it wise to send competition my customer files :)
 
Thanks PrintTriks,

I have a handful of 'test' files that I have been giving to Konica Xerox and Canon. Do you have an image or a hint as to what type of image the Ricoh has problems with?

How are gray gradients, and really light tints?

Thanks,



Alu - we're also testing machines atm and I've found that incorporating the Kodak test image with the 4 babies is *really* valuable (google it). It's the one with the asian, caucasian, black and mediterranean babies (basically they give a wide gamut of skin tones and of course babies have naturally "perfect" skin with no make up). That's a REAL eye opener and you start to get a handle on the issues arising from photo book / high end printing. Also useful are large grey patches (10%, 20% etc.), gradient strips (BOTH directions) in primary and composite colours. I've also thrown in a high resolution B&W image (with plenty of shadow detail), plus an image with big blue skies and clouds and a few other test images. Then of course the good old serif text with sizes down to 4pt and the same reversed out of a composite colour. Basically, all the stuff you know will stretch the capability of a digital machine. Round it off with a nasty composite solid colour background so that you can do an eyeball test for colour consistency across the sheet.

We're testing slightly different machines: Canon 7010VP, Konica c8000, Xerox 800 and Ricoh 901. Very interesting results! I don't think there's a bad one among them, but 2 of the sales people made claims that the quality was at the level of an Indigo. So far, only one is at "near" indigo level and it wasn't either of the 2 that claimed it!
 
If you are running full bleeds and cutting edges, I'd go to anything other than the KM7000. The registration is all over. I'm told by our tech that the KM8000 is spot on with is registration. Looks like KM put it all on the high end machine.

Lou
 
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lfelton, are you going to leave us in suspense? Would love to know your findings, understanding that they are subjective. Cheers.
 

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