Komori picture framing

[TheProcessIStheproduct]

Temp

Temp

Had this same problem about a week ago, messed with all the usual fixes most of which have been offered up in this post, but the one an only thing that fixed it was changing pad filters on royse and blowing out the coils and coming down from 55 to 52 on the set point, next day NO picture framing, NO edge tinting, and water was down 20%, I would not have believed temp had that much to do with it, but 100% improvement...

 

[GazKL440]

Hmm....I've only skimmed through the replies on this particular thread. This may have already been mentioned...but I wonder what the temperature in your water pan is. Perhaps its not draining and replenishing newer cooler etch fast enough? I know a hot press can do this among other things.

That's a pretty good point re the temp issue, our factory is un-air-conditioned and over the last 3/4 months it's regularly averaging 30+ degrees c, and out technotrans works hard to keep everything cool. I will have a look at the duct temps but I would bet a lot of cash on the ducts being more than 10c over the reservoir...Can't be helping...

 

[Alois Senefelder]

FS Temperature

FS Temperature

Messrs. TheProcessistheproduct / GazKL


I suggest you read the PDF - Thread: Web Offset Newsletter, posted - 10/24/2009

It deals with FS Temperature variations.



Regards, Alois

 

[John Arneson]

Thanks for the PDFs Alois, I read them and the numbers seem correct to me. In the interest of the way this thread has been going I decided to check things out a little more closely. I found the water in the Royce system to be a couple degrees warmer than the digital readout, also that the pan temp during production was a few degrees warmer than the tank.
I blew out all the motors, coils, cooling fins, replaced the air filters,water bag filters, put in fresh fountain solution and lowered the tank temps by 10F.
What I found to happen was that it was necessary for me to lower my start up water speed on all units. Interesting.. I like it.
Did it do anything to help the picture framing? Not a darn thing.
Thanks to all of you with replies.
John

 

[Dan Roll]

I am curious about the recommended packing set-up for the Komori presses that picture frame vs those that do not. What are the cylinder undercuts and what are the recommended heights in relation to the bearers? I have observed many machines (not just Komori) that came with manuals that recommended unworkable packing schemes or dampener settings, or both. More often than not, these bad settings were vigorously defended (and enforced) by the manufactures representatives.

 

[MacTwidget]

Picture Framing

Picture Framing

Hi All.
Please excuse my ignorance.
I have been in the Printing Industry for a long time, mostly prepress, but I am always wanting to learn more about the press side of things.
I've heard the term "Picture Framing" recently, but have no idea what it means.
Could one of you explain to me exactly what this is?

 

[John Arneson]

Dan,
I 100% agree with you on both the roller settings and the cylinder packing. On this particular press Komori wants me to pack the plate to .006 over and the blanket to .002 under. They were adamant about it. After several months of fighting picture framing problems I finally said the hell with it. I ran a virtually identical press for 10 years before this one with no picture framing problems whatsoever. I have been trying to figure out what they have changed. The cylinder packing is one. I am now packed like my former press.
Plate= +0.00233
Blanket= + 0.0025
I have borrowed a packing gauge from a friend to make sure mine is reading correctly and they both read the same.
I sure print a lot bettor this way especially with lightweight uncoated stock. All I have to do is add .004 to my calibration of stock thickness to start because they have also changed the size of the impression cylinder and the transfer cylinder.
Komori demonstrator was in a few weeks ago and finally agreed with me that this packing set up is bettor.
Please see attachment.

 

[John Arneson]

MacTwidget,
Picture framing is simply the ink buildup outside of the sheet on the blanket. It is a normal happening and usually of no concern. When it is of concern is when it builds up too fast and can contaminate the plate or build up on the impression cylinder and begin to sling ink onto the transfer cylinders.

 

[Dan Roll]

John, Thanks for the illustration. Whenever the cylinders are the same diameter, it is important to have the plate and blanket diameters the same so they will travel at the same speed (meaning pack each to the same height relative to the bearers). I am convinced that most Komori sheetfed presses that picture frame are packed in a manner that increases the friction between these two surfaces. I have seen similar problems on Planetta presses that are without bearers, where there was no reference point to work from and the packing recommendation was causing plate wear and other issues. This simple speed difference problem is also the major cause of plate tail cracking on webs, but for some reason it never seems to go away.

 

[FujiFrank]

I am wondering if any of you having the picture framing issues are running low tack ink? I ask because we are finding that there is a leaning industry wide toward low tack inks and these inks are high in pigment and lower in water pickup capabilities.

If the ink does not take up water at some point it will also not properly transfer or clear itself from the grain of the plate.

Secondly, the high pigment levels are causing printers to run a low ink film which is also lending itself toward balance issues. SO I ask also, are picture framing issues better or worse on "light" coverage jobs???

If so then you may need to consult with your ink provider to find an ink that is less pigment heavy for a trial. The lower ink pigment will cause your pressman to run a thicker ink film, also allowing more ink to be run through the press allowing "fresh" ink to run in the rollers. Some people prefer to cut the ink with 5-10% trans white for a test.

Also, try changing the timing of the ink delivery, this can be adjusted on the new presses and I have seen this clear up some of the framing that is lead edge abundant.

Sincerely,

 

[John Arneson]

FujiFrank,
Thank you very much for your reply. As you may have read I am running a very high tact ink. I think you may be on to something here and will try an experiment with my current ink at a 10% tans wht. added. Job's do seem to be worse with less coverage. I have changed the ratios and synchronization of my waters but never the ink. Although I think you may be wrong about the tact of the ink, I think you may be correct about the water pickup of the ink . I have tried low tact ,high ,and med from several different Ink company's . I know what works on this press now and will test when possible.
Thank you Frank
John

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Cylinder Packings

Cylinder Packings

John,

I suggest you appraise the the Fundamentals of Cylinder Packings for Printing Presses

The basics of Cyl.Packing have been used since the time of Ira Rubel/Casper Hermann,
using Litho Plates made by Albumin,Deep Etch and Presensitized Offset Plates technique.

Picture Framing Problem did not exist prior to the advent of CtP plate technology.

PDfs !!

Regards, Alois

 

[Alois Senefelder]

High Pigmented Inks

High Pigmented Inks

John,

Just because Ink is higher pigmented,does not lessen its ability to pick-up water. All Litho Inks have to form a Stable Emulsion.


See the PDFs I have posted - Ink F1 Curve, Thread: Postive Ink Feed - Date : 08/05/2010

also see the Water Pick-up Graph, same thread.


Regards, Alois

 

[clivechapman]

Hello John,

We had picture framing as you call it on a Komori GL640. Just to confirm, this is where the unprinted area on the blanket builds up excess ink yes? Well, in our case it was due to rollers A and D oscillating. Check these rollers are not moving in the cups. The other contributory factory could be your damper water, check the fount concentration and conductivity are correct. Are you running alcohol free?

Let me know out of interest if there was any side to side movement in your A and D rollers.

 

[John Arneson]

Clive,
Thanks for your reply. Firstly yes "Picture Framing" Excessive ink build up outside of the sheet.
Not a problem unless you have a run over 10,000 imps. then things can get a bit messy. As far as lateral movement in any of the form rollers their is absolutely none. When I install a new set of rollers, I do it in such a manner that it requires a bit of hammering to remove it again.
I have been running alcohol free since 1992. The problem is constant it is just part of everyday running of this machine. It is mechanical not chemical. I know what it is, but do not know how to fix it. I know how to make the machine work and I live with it. I do not want to name names, or say too much here on this forum as I am afraid too many people will get their panties in a bunch. I have sent you a P.M. if you wish to know more.
John

 

[Alois Senefelder]

*******

*******

Modus Operandi



You have a Problem - Hammer it into submission !



Regards, Alois

 

[tomatron]

Ran Komori for 15 years and didn't see picture framing until they introduced Delta dampening effect. The last Komori I ran had Delta and if I ran with delta it picture framed on all units. If I ran without delta, even long runs it would run clean. Now I run Heidelberg for the last 9 years and its the same thing. Heavy picture framing with Vario and none when running no Vario!!!

T

 

[Dan Roll]

By whatever terminology it is referred to, the turning of a form roller at a speed different than that of the plate with the intention of removing 'hickies' or other debris from the plate surface directly leads to a high friction load on the plate surface. If the plates are made with a strong enough aluminum alloy (as was common in the past) there will not often be trouble. However, most modern plates usually use a very soft alloy in the interest of more uniform and quicker forming grain and these plates are quickly damaged by friction, making the plate background progressively less water attractive and consequently, less able to repel ink. If you have a dampener with the 'Delta effect" I would advise the least amount of form roller to plate pressure one could achieve.

 

[D Ink Man]

Try TOYO process inks.

and/or:

Bottcher 2 step fountain solution. S-3002 etch and S-3003 sub. Follow label instructions or have a "TECHNICAL" representative partner with you with a site visit.

or other alternative:

Contact Printers Service aka Prisco. 1-800 A Technical Service representative will custom fit you with fount chemistry to eliminate any picture framing. May even be able to stay with your same 4/C series taking this route.

People & Service is the key! D

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Question

Question

Hello tomatron,


Why would you replace Komorimatic Dampening System, which is one of the finest press dampening systems available,

with the patented Epic's Delta Dampening System ?


Regards, Alois