Need Color Management Direction

[pabney]

We just got bit by the new Indesign CS6 Lab color books. I realize that Lab color is the way things are going, and I also realize that we are not doing thing at this shop in a proper color management workflow. I want to change that, but I have know idea what I need to do. I suspect I need a properly trained expert to come to my shop and show us the proper way to do color management for our system.

Where would I look for such a person?
Is this something we should look to our rip manufacturer (Screen) for?

Somebody, please help me find the proper way.

TIA

Paul

 

[Ptheobald1]

I would recommend Terry Wyse as a good starting point
Wyseconsul.com
Pat


Where would I look for such a person?
Is this something we should look to our rip manufacturer (Screen) for?

Somebody, please help me find the proper way.

TIA

Paul[/QUOTE]

 

[pabney]

Ptheobald1
That link seems to be out of commission. Any other thoughts?

 

[David Milisock]

We just got bit by the new Indesign CS6 Lab color books. I realize that Lab color is the way things are going, and I also realize that we are not doing thing at this shop in a proper color management workflow. I want to change that, but I have know idea what I need to do. I suspect I need a properly trained expert to come to my shop and show us the proper way to do color management for our system.

Where would I look for such a person?
Is this something we should look to our rip manufacturer (Screen) for?

Somebody, please help me find the proper way.

TIA

Paul

Where are you located?

One bit of advice, read quite a bit before purchasing services, READ EVERYTHING WITH A GRAIN OF SALT!! The book real world color management is a decent start, even though they completely miss the boat on some subjects as most books do. Search the web for other sources, color management is convoluted but not that difficult and 98% of what's said is BS specifically when applied to the real world of keeping a shop in the black, (in terms of profit).

Another good start would be to describe your entire work flow process here so other can advise. I.E. how you receive files, do you create files, what programs, what platform, (MAC & PC) what pre-press applications, RIPS, plate setters, proofers. What types of output work do you do.

I would add this, anyone who says that color management will make your display, print and proofs match is either blind, untrained, a liar, selling something or all the aforementioned. Color management properly understood and implimented will create an improved repeatable process which can improve profitability. If you apply yourself it doesn't have to cost you a mountain of money, if you already have a system with a service contract that includes calibration for the plate setters many times it's just a matter of reading and then the proper settings.

 

[Ptheobald1]

wyseconsul

wyseconsul

I think this might be Terry's email. You could try to reach him at
[email protected]
He is also a Senior Member of Printplanet.com, maybe he will see the posts and contact you.
Best of luck,
Pat



QUOTE=pabney;189121]Ptheobald1
That link seems to be out of commission. Any other thoughts?[/QUOTE]

b

 

[pabney]

I have been scouring the web reading everything I can, and will look into getting real world color management.

We are located in Memphis, Tennessee, and have the following workflow.

Files are supplied to us in whatever form we get. Mostly PDF and Indesign files. We do however receive entire books done in photoshop, or illustrator. We also at times get things in word, excel and even publisher.

We print everything from business cards and office forms to 7 color brochures. We basically have two types of customers. The ones that don't care about color as long as it looks good. These customers usually don't get contract proofs of their jobs, and just want us to run to the color bars. The other type do care about color and want color proofs on everything.

Our workflow for a typical job:
Receive Indesign Files from Customer.
Open files and change all 17 pms colors used to cmyk using ink mangers convert all spots to process check box.
Create pdf using preset suggested by Screen Trueflow. (We are using Trueflow ver 7 rip)
Drop resulting pdf in Equious for ripping and trapping.
If contract proofs are needed out put them to Epson Stylus Pro 7880 using Oris Color Tuner ver 5.5 Calibrated to Graycol
Output imposition proofs to Spinjet 4000
Ater approval, plates are made on FujiFilm Dart 400 S in either 150/200 line screen, or 20 micron randont.
We are able to match contract color on on our presses with little to no problems.

So what's the problem?
Lab colors. I have no idea what to do with them, and neither does the rip. I understand the need to go to a lab workflow, and would like to, but have no clue how to set this up, how to calibrate the rip to convert lab colors properly or even how to convince my production manager that we need to do this.

Any files we receive in Indesign CS6 of course defines PMS colors in LAB. There is NO way that I can change how our 100+ customers build files. They are going to use pms colors, even when printing is 4/4. So how do I match something that was done last year, that was printed with the 4 color build of 2768 to something supplied this year that defines 2768 as lab? I know that I can convert that to the 4/c builds that printed last year, except for the following:

This would be a work around the problem and not fix the problem solution.
I feel the we need to embrace the LAB workflow and short circuit it.
We have 100's of files and colors that we are talking about not just a few

Thanks for the responses, and let me know if I forgot anything.
Paul

 

[rich apollo]

I'm in Tulsa and could work with you. PM me if you'd like to talk.

It sounds like you just need a little help with workflow practices.

I know Terry Wyse, and he is very good, too.

 

[gcplau]

Paul, I guess the guy has the close experience is Don Hutchson, because he spent quite some time in RGB workflow. I am not sure why you need such maximum color space and what likely the output media color space is. But he might be able to help, tell him your ball park in budget and expectation. His site: HutchColor, LLC

 

[pabney]

gcplau,
Not sure what you mean by "I am not sure why you need such maximum color space", I am really just looking for a reliable way to use the new color books in Indesign CS6 that only have LAB definitions.

However, thanks for the link and I will take a look at the site.

For everyone else that has offered help, thank you very much I am still looking at those suggestions, but would be glad for any more.

Paul

 

[Mark Flanders]

Paul,

My 2 cents, at the risk of stepping on a few toes. I think you might be over-fretting about the CS6 Indesign LAB color book. Don't let the hype drive you crazy. Judging by your workflow, you are a typical commercial printshop. LAB color, like RGB and CMYK is a gamut, or range of colors. Unless your are publishing to the WEB, or some sort of 6-color process, you are going to reduce the wider color ranges (RGB and LAB) into CMYK... just like you are now. Color Management well worth learning about, and investing in (even if it is sort of the science of perception) but your task should be to profile your presses and proof devices so they are the best of friends, and possilby to look at workflows for the future. Don't worry. It's OK. (smile)

Mark Flanders

 

[pabney]

Mark,
I agree that LAB will have to be converted to cmyk, the problem is doing it accurately. We have already needed to do a reprint costing a couple of thousand dollars because of a color mismatch between files from CS5 using cmyk color builds, and CS6 using LAB color builds. I am not interested in reinventing the wheel here, nor am I interested in changing our entire workflow if not needed. The real problem is that I don't know what is needed. That being said, after looking around a bit the last few days, here are the things that I would like to accomplish.

1. Ensure that CS5 and CS6 are producing the SAME color builds when converting colors. Either from LAB to CMYK or RGB to CMYK.
2. If conversions are to happen in the rip, ensure it is using the proper settings for both LAB and RGB.
3. Since I am working on workflow, I would like to explore/implement a better pdf preflight as I don't believe we are using acrobat to its fullest potential.
4. Correct any workflow issues that arise from setting up the above 3 items.
5. Learn a bit more on how I can help my color conscience customers supply files with the proper settings to achieve what they want as I feel I am weak in this area.

Paul

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Some of the pros/cons are discussed here:

http://printplanet.com/forums/color-management/29873-cmyk-swatch


Stephen Marsh

 

[Mark Flanders]

Thanks for a great reply Paul. I apologize if I came across as yet another know-it-all, who doesn't actually know it all. (smile) I'm learning from this discussion as well. Also, I now understand more fully how you got burned. So, here is my current thought on the subject:

CS6 LAB color is apparently a well and good improvement for designers, however, this change is, in fact, a change in the content as provided by the customer to the printer. In other words, LAB color is going to render CMYK differently than it did in the previous job, and there is no getting out of this. They bought into the latest greatest CS6, and their file has changed, just as if they had changed a font. The solution is knowing this is the case, and providing the designer a proof that looks like what is going to come off of the press, and warning them that this is a near-exact color proof, and that the new LAB colors render colors differently. If they don't like the change, then the file will need to revert to the previous CMYK values one way or the other. Either don't use the new LAB colors, or save it back in some sort of "legacy" version of the file. One could probably set a RIP to revert to a standard RGB color library, which is a solution, but it also defeats the point of the supposely better LAB color.

I think you are not as "weak" in this subject as you first suggested. Good luck to you!

Mark

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Paul, some points to consider:

* How are you proofing, is to an industry target such as GRACoL or Fogra39/ISO Coated? Or to a custom house profile?

* Are you actually separating to and or printing to an industry target such as GRACoL or Fogra39/ISO Coated? Or to a custom house profile?

* Can your press consistently "match" the proof?

* Should the onus be on you or your customer to convert spot colours to CMYK for CMYK only print job? If it is the duty of the customer, then can you provide them with an ICC profile so that they can judge how their CMYK numbers will appear in your printing? If this should be your task, then you should have a mechanism in place to get the client to sign off on that colour and for you to then deliver that colour on press - within "acceptable" tolerance for variation.


Moving on from these general points to your numbered points below. Please forgive me if these points are obvious, one can get down to the nuts and bolts of how to accomplish this later:

1. You will need to ensure that both CS5 and CS6 have access to and can use the same source Pantone library files, and that they have the same colour management settings (source/destination/options) in place to deliver the same final CMYK values (whether or not you decide to use CMYK or LAB based library files). This may be harder to do with customer supplied files, are you doing to change every spot colour in every job to use the "correct" CMYK build?.

2. I would do one or the other, either point 1 (early binding), or point 2 (late binding). If point 1, then conversions happen in InDesign and the .PS or .PDF file delivered to proofing or plating RIP only contains CMYK colours. If point 2, you would need some way to softproof and or hardcopy proof the colour of the RIP conversion.

3. Do you mean a better default Acrobat preflight profile, or a better Acrobat preflight from the GWG or perhaps a vendor such as Enfocus, Callas or somebody else?

4. No comment as of yet

5. This final point would come into play once all of the other issues were solved.



Stephen Marsh

Mark,
I agree that LAB will have to be converted to cmyk, the problem is doing it accurately. We have already needed to do a reprint costing a couple of thousand dollars because of a color mismatch between files from CS5 using cmyk color builds, and CS6 using LAB color builds. I am not interested in reinventing the wheel here, nor am I interested in changing our entire workflow if not needed. The real problem is that I don't know what is needed. That being said, after looking around a bit the last few days, here are the things that I would like to accomplish.

1. Ensure that CS5 and CS6 are producing the SAME color builds when converting colors. Either from LAB to CMYK or RGB to CMYK.
2. If conversions are to happen in the rip, ensure it is using the proper settings for both LAB and RGB.
3. Since I am working on workflow, I would like to explore/implement a better pdf preflight as I don't believe we are using acrobat to its fullest potential.
4. Correct any workflow issues that arise from setting up the above 3 items.
5. Learn a bit more on how I can help my color conscience customers supply files with the proper settings to achieve what they want as I feel I am weak in this area.

Paul

 

[Louis Dery]

Hello Paul,
Pantone made a move to Lab in order to make better CMYK builds (based on your CMYK working space) but this does not guarantee that everyone will get the same CMYK value. :-(
Pantone provides Pantone Plus Bridge for "standardized" CMYK builds. This is a kind of solution BUT, those CMYK values come from an ICC based conversion, fine tuned by experts at Pantone in order to match "international print standard" (This is the answer I about a month or two ago). You have to know that these CMYK values are based on european TVI standard and does not match any standard CMYK ICC profile you can find in Adobe color settings!
Just make this little test in InDesign: create color swatch with Pantone 424 C from the Pantone + Coated library; then create another color swatch using Pantone 424 CP from Pantone + Color Bridge Coated. Finally, try to assign any "standard" CMYK profile to your document in order to get the match between those 2 Pantone swatches. I haven’t been able to find one.
I choose Pantone 424 because it is a very easy to match colour, since it is a simple tray tone color.

I asked Pantone which "standard" ICC profile they used to create the Pantone + ColorBridge CMYK values, but wasn’t able to get the specific name of it.

SO, there is still some work to do in color management for solid colors!

Louis
Couleur 911 — Formation Gestion de couleur — Québec

 

[Paul Santer]

Paul

If your looking at converting your spot colours in the Rip I would advise that you speak to your workflow vendor, as the cmyk alternate values may be used in proofing, trapping as well as supplying the conversion value for spot colours. It would also be difficult for someone to give you generic advice as there may be many options and check boxes within your workflow that would effect how the values are used and converted.

Mark,
I agree that LAB will have to be converted to cmyk, the problem is doing it accurately. We have already needed to do a reprint costing a couple of thousand dollars because of a color mismatch between files from CS5 using cmyk color builds, and CS6 using LAB color builds. I am not interested in reinventing the wheel here, nor am I interested in changing our entire workflow if not needed. The real problem is that I don't know what is needed. That being said, after looking around a bit the last few days, here are the things that I would like to accomplish.

1. Ensure that CS5 and CS6 are producing the SAME color builds when converting colors. Either from LAB to CMYK or RGB to CMYK.
2. If conversions are to happen in the rip, ensure it is using the proper settings for both LAB and RGB.
3. Since I am working on workflow, I would like to explore/implement a better pdf preflight as I don't believe we are using acrobat to its fullest potential.
4. Correct any workflow issues that arise from setting up the above 3 items.
5. Learn a bit more on how I can help my color conscience customers supply files with the proper settings to achieve what they want as I feel I am weak in this area.

Paul

 

[David Milisock]

Mark,
I agree that LAB will have to be converted to cmyk, the problem is doing it accurately. We have already needed to do a reprint costing a couple of thousand dollars because of a color mismatch between files from CS5 using cmyk color builds, and CS6 using LAB color builds. I am not interested in reinventing the wheel here, nor am I interested in changing our entire workflow if not needed. The real problem is that I don't know what is needed. That being said, after looking around a bit the last few days, here are the things that I would like to accomplish.

1. Ensure that CS5 and CS6 are producing the SAME color builds when converting colors. Either from LAB to CMYK or RGB to CMYK.
2. If conversions are to happen in the rip, ensure it is using the proper settings for both LAB and RGB.
3. Since I am working on workflow, I would like to explore/implement a better pdf preflight as I don't believe we are using acrobat to its fullest potential.
4. Correct any workflow issues that arise from setting up the above 3 items.
5. Learn a bit more on how I can help my color conscience customers supply files with the proper settings to achieve what they want as I feel I am weak in this area.

Paul

It seems that you're on track with 1 and 2
on 4 It's been a couplke years since I worked on color engine coding but if memory serves later versions on PDF contain the alternate color space numbers within the PDF. Thic can be checked with PitStop Pro
With 5 I would suggest going on site or conference calling to see what processes the client is using, modifing your flow if required per client.

 

[jbh]

ORIS Press Matcher / Web - it's a color management system that can calibrate digital, litho, large format - we use it throughout our place, consistent, accurate colour - I've never been happier with my output, or had it so easy.
Do yourself a favor and find somebody in your area that runs ORIS pressmatcher, go and see how easy their color management has become,
regards
James. (happy ORIS customer)

 

[pabney]

First off I would like to thank everyone for their input on this. It has helped me out greatly.

Mark, you did not come off as a know it all and there is no need to apologize. After rereading my original post, I sounded a bit like I thought the sky was falling. Chalk it up to a bad day. I generally believe that most problems get blown way out of proportion, so your advice was appropriate, and did help me get my feet back on the ground.

Now back to the original discussion. After talking to several people and reading this forum, as well as a multitude of other sights, here is the game plan so far.

Do not do color conversions in the rip. Rather do them when creating the pdf using the standard Lab values for spots and the GraCol cmyk color space preserving numbers for any colors that are already cmyk. This is for both CS5 and CS6. This should give us the same conversion numbers between the two programs. Although, they will be different than any conversions in the past, we will just have to deal with that on a customer by customer basis. That takes care of my goal points 1 and 2.

Point 3 about using acrobat more fully is still in the works. We currently use acrobat very little. I have seen on this forum about preflight profiles that fix problems inside a pdf, that I am not using and need to research this more. This will still have to wait a bit, as a few other things here have taken priority over this one. I would still like to learn a bit more about Acrobat's preflight to better utilize this tool.

Points 4 and 5 are in the works now. We are talking to our customers about the changes in Pantone color builds and working on educating them on giving us files in a more consistent way to achieve the color they are looking for.

A new point did come up when talking to a few people that I do need to address and would like a some feedback. I have no uncoated proofing workflow.
We are using Oris color tuner 5.5 calibrated to GraCol. This works great for anything printed on a coated sheet. Uncoated is a different story, although I do not know how to set up an uncoated proofing que. Is there a default profile I can use for uncoated like I use GraCol for coated?

Again, thanks everyone for their help.

Paul

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Paul, It sounds like you are printing to GRACoL for coated work, so that is a known target.

For uncoated work, the questions would be the same.

* Are you actually separating to and or printing to an industry target for uncoated? Or to a custom house profile for uncoated?
* Can your press consistently "match" the proof?

What condition/profile are you separating to? Is it the same as for coated? Do you then hit the coated separations with press curves in an attempt to compensate? If it is not the same profile as coated, what profile are you using for separation?

Would this be a standard profile (that you can actually match on press) or would you create a custom house profile for such work?

What stock would you be proofing on? Would you simulate paper white or zero it out and use the proofing stock white when setting up your queue in ORIS Color Tuner? Are you licensed to make your own custom RFP files in ORIS CT, or can you only use the ones that are supplied by CGS for various standard proofing conditions and CGS or Epson papers?


Stephen Marsh