Nexfinity vs Iridesse Vs Igen

[raminmd]

Hi all,

As a quick background, we do a lot of very high quality (not quite photographic but close) on demand prints. We also mail almost everything we print. We have had the Kodak NexPress for the last 5 years. We also have a Ricoh 9100 as our second press. The Kodak is our primary and gets most off the volume. It is high maintenance but it was a good fit for us especially with their light black application. We put in around 1.5 million A4 clicks per month overall.

We are looking for a new press as our lease is up on both presses and they are showing their age. While we never really considered any other press except a Nexfinity for our next press, we are now seriously looking at Xerox Iridesse/Igen as well in addition to the Nexfinity. With changes in Kodak's service plans and other service related factors, we are not quite as sure about getting a Nexfinity. The Indigo is just too expensive and probably is not a great fit for us because of the adherence issue.

We ran some of our sample files on all three presses (Kodak/Iridesse/Igen) that we are considering as our primary press. Surprisingly, the Iridesse was almost the same as the Kodak (with light black) print quality wise. The IGen's output was just not up there. It was definitely worse than the Iridesse or the Nexfinity. I have a few questions about the Iridesse -

1.) Can it be a consistent primary press? We need the front to back registration to be perfect. We do a fair amount of booklets. The Nexpress holds the registration really well for the most part. Will the Iridesse hold it well.

2.) How is the color consistency over a time period. We will be putting around a million A4 clicks or more on the Iridesse (if it is our primary press) over the next 5 years. Will it be good at that kind of volume. The reason I am asking this is because before the Kodak, we had the Ricoh 9100 as our main press. I like the Ricoh 9100. It has been a good second press for us but holding color was a nightmare on there after a certain period of time. Even with regular calibrations, color just would not be consistent. I understand this is digital printing but the Nexpress does a good job with getting consistent color.

3.) Are the Iridesse and the Nexfinity comparable as far a the build quality is concerned. We have two shifts adding up to 16 hours. Can the press hold up with that kind of use? The Nexfinity comes with its own environmental control unit and has air and water connections. The Iridesse does not need any of that. That makes me worry that it is not in the same class as the Nexfinity.

Are there any other presses including inkjet that I could be looking at?

Thanks,

 

[Stickman42]

I upgraded from Versant 80s to an Iridesse a year ago. We have been extremely pleased with how it performs with regard to color consistency, front/back and sheet-to-sheet registration, and time between service calls. Bear in mind our monthly volumes are 100K-200K large sheets (12 x 18). Xerox would equate this to twice as many clicks as they define prints as 8.5 x 11.

Check page 6 of the attached document. Your volume alone may be too much for the machine, eliminating it as a contender.

 

[raminmd]

Thank you for that info. We have been told that the press can run 1 million - 1.25 million A4 clicks a month with no issues. This document definitely contradicts that. This is definitely something I need to get a clarification from them on.

 

[Stickman42]

Thank you for that info. We have been told that the press can run 1 million - 1.25 million A4 clicks a month with no issues. This document definitely contradicts that. This is definitely something I need to get a clarification from them on.

After 35+ years working with Xerox and Canon equipment, one thing has remained consistent: service techs have been far more accurate than sales with setting performance expectations.

 

[SoggyWinter]

From page 6 of the CED, the recommended monthly volume is 225,000 to 475,000 A4 impressions.

 

[Stickman42]

Thank you for that info. We have been told that the press can run 1 million - 1.25 million A4 clicks a month with no issues. This document definitely contradicts that. This is definitely something I need to get a clarification from them on.

I believe it's Xerox's policy to get a customer to sign the Expectations Document before a sale can go through. I view the doc as a positive because it's usually more realistic than what may be verbally promised.

 

[namelessentity]

No idea if it's in your price range, but you might want to look into sheetfed inkjet.

Sheetfed Inkjet Color Presses - Canon Solutions America

Print providers who are looking to grow their business and transition to inkjet are giving rave reviews to Sheetfed Inkjet Color Presses from Canon Solutions America.

csa.canon.com

I know Konica also has the KM1 AccurioJet KM-1 | Konica Minolta

 

[azehnali]

there is no way you can run that kind of volume on any digital press
maybe an igen but thats about it

 

[Lorenzo lab guy]

Raminmd, you mention "not quite photographic quality" - an aside, we ran some tests of Felix Schoeller ePhoto on a XeroxV4100and it is very, very close to photo quality. Probably fine for a consumer grade photo lab. Lab owners ( me - 40 years running a photo lab) are very conservative on this stuff but there is some opportunity here to shake up traditional production methods.

 

[chriscozi]

The IGen's output was just not up there. It was definitely worse than the Iridesse or the Nexfinity.

Wow.

If I had to guess I would say that the operator on the iGen must have done something wrong.
We consistently find better results on the iGen.
We use a Gracol curve (with a scanned target on EFi software on a regular basis) and it rivals our 6c Mitsubishi for consistency and fidelity.

PS - I do know that the business class vendors (Xerox, Fuji, etc.) have been trumpeting the Iridesse these last two quarters.

 

[aprinterslife]

If you want high maintenance and poor service go with Xerox. If you want low cost and high quality go with Kodak. We dropped Xerox after 23 years. Too many breakdowns and very expensive to operate. Kodak has been a very pleasant surprise.

 

[raminmd]

Hi all, thanks for your replies. Chriscozi, to answer your question, the samples came from Xerox Rochester. We had the same files printed by them on the Iridesse and Igen. Between Ricoh/Kodak/Igen and Iridesse, the Igen samples were easily the worst. Xerox themselves told me that the Iridesse would be a better fit for us as far as quality is concerned. The Igen is great with high volumes but we were very underwhelmed by the output. To be specific when I say quality, I am talking about the print quality of pictures of people and homes. There seems to be a lot of "noise" on these pics with the Igen. The print seem very grainy. That's about the best way I can put it. We did not see that with the Iridesse or the other presses. We are definitely considering the Nexfinity since we have the Nexpress and love the quality. However, we are also looking at other options as well due to a few reasons. The issue with the Versant is the duty cycle. It just would not be close to enough. We would love to get an Inkjet but I don't think we are quite there yet with volumes. I also don't think Inkjets are quite there yet with quality as well. I definitely after this lease cycle, we will probably get an inkjet. How does the KM 14000 compare. It seems like it has a great duty cycle and seems to have great specs. I spoke to another print shop owner today that loves it and thinks it might a great it for us. For what it is worth, I reached out to KM today as well.

 

[chriscozi]

Hi all, thanks for your replies. Chriscozi, to answer your question, the samples came from Xerox Rochester. We had the same files printed by them on the Iridesse and Igen. Between Ricoh/Kodak/Igen and Iridesse, the Igen samples were easily the worst. Xerox themselves told me that the Iridesse would be a better fit for us as far as quality is concerned. The Igen is great with high volumes but we were very underwhelmed by the output. To be specific when I say quality, I am talking about the print quality of pictures of people and homes. There seems to be a lot of "noise" on these pics with the Igen. The print seem very grainy. That's about the best way I can put it. We did not see that with the Iridesse or the other presses. We are definitely considering the Nexfinity since we have the Nexpress and love the quality. However, we are also looking at other options as well due to a few reasons. The issue with the Versant is the duty cycle. It just would not be close to enough. We would love to get an Inkjet but I don't think we are quite there yet with volumes. I also don't think Inkjets are quite there yet with quality as well. I definitely after this lease cycle, we will probably get an inkjet. How does the KM 14000 compare. It seems like it has a great duty cycle and seems to have great specs. I spoke to another print shop owner today that loves it and thinks it might a great it for us. For what it is worth, I reached out to KM today as well.

I will be interested in the research on KM.
But that is really sad about Xerox Rochester.
I don't believe I have EVER seen a 'grainy' result from the iGen.
Sigh.
I know for a fact there are several VERY large multiple machine iGen users on the East Coast that pound their iGens and produce top notch quality. Many of their commercial customers think it is offset.
I have absolutely ZERO doubt about the quality.
I should try to sell you an iGen and get the commission.

 

[raminmd]

Weird...we definitely thought the IGEN would be up there as well...just did not see the quality. We did at least 2 different sets of samples with Xerox. Not sure why the disconnect between what you see and what I saw from Xerox. Xerox themselves have been pushing the 2 Iridesse solution a lot more with us than the Igen. The problem is even 2 Iridesses are probably not good enough for the volume we would put on them. I will update this thread with our KM research as we go through the process.

 

[jwheeler]

No idea if it's in your price range, but you might want to look into sheetfed inkjet.

Sheetfed Inkjet Color Presses - Canon Solutions America

Print providers who are looking to grow their business and transition to inkjet are giving rave reviews to Sheetfed Inkjet Color Presses from Canon Solutions America.

csa.canon.com

I know Konica also has the KM1 AccurioJet KM-1 | Konica Minolta

@raminmd Since you are talking to KM about their C14000, they may also bring up the KM-1. They have a newer version that is higher quality and probably more ideal for your work called the KM-1e HD. This is a UV inkjet press that runs a 585 x 750 mm sheet, so you could run 5up A4's with dutch cuts. In the US, that sheet size allows us to print 6up letter in a normal imposition.

The Canon press that @namelessentity mentioned also seems to have the speed, build quality, and print quality that you need. I haven't personally seen samples off it, but the video at the bottom of this page touts that it is offset quality. Xerox has the Baltoro HF that seems to be in a similar class.

The KM C14000 is about the same duty cycle as the Xerox Iridesse, so you'll need at least 2 of those as well.

Another note on the Iridesse...our shop supervisor used to work at another shop that had one. He said the quality was amazing, but there were constant warming up/adjusting times that really killed productivity. That was the first thing he noted when he joined our shop since we have KM's. They still have adjustment and warm up times, but it's much short and less frequent than the Iridesse according to him. Have you experienced this @Stickman42 ?

 

[raminmd]

@jwheeler thank you for the suggestions. That is the conundrum we are in right now. Our volumes are not quite there for inkjet. We are very wary of buying more machine than we need, especially in this environment. I will ask KM about their inkjet. I also just contacted Canon as well. My guess is we will probably end up with a regular digital press for this lease cycle and hopefully build our volumes up enough for inkjet next time around. I love the speed and running cost of the inkjet....it is the capital cost that really bothers me especially if there is a downturn.

 

[jwheeler]

@jwheeler thank you for the suggestions. That is the conundrum we are in right now. Our volumes are not quite there for inkjet. We are very wary of buying more machine than we need, especially in this environment. I will ask KM about their inkjet. I also just contacted Canon as well. My guess is we will probably end up with a regular digital press for this lease cycle and hopefully build our volumes up enough for inkjet next time around. I love the speed and running cost of the inkjet....it is the capital cost that really bothers me especially if there is a downturn.

Understood! And you are correct about the large capital investment on the inkjets, not to mention the retrofitting you'll have to do to your facility to install them. You can probably get three Iridesses for less than 1 of the inkjets, and have plenty of redundancy! It's too bad Kodak's service is driving you away from them though. I think that machine is a class above the C14000 or Iridesse, your staff already knows the workflow, and you can rely on the quality. Any chance you could sit down with Kodak upper management and write out some expectations that are a better fit?

If you aren't one of the operators of the Kodak, please do yourself a favor and bring your staff to thoroughly demo any machine that you're strongly considering. Nobody likes change, but you'll get better buy-in from them if they get to be part of the decision making process. I used to sell production gear for KM and there was nothing worse than a purchasing person making a decision without involving the operators.

 

[DYP]

If your are considering inkjet have you researched what paper you can run? I though the papers that are available for inkjet are very limited and pricy.

 

[raminmd]

We are definitely including our operators in the discussion. They like the Kodak and would rather not change. However, they do see the challenges and understand if we have to make a change. We are talking to upper management in Kodak. Not sure if anything will come of it but we are at least making a good faith effort to try and resolve some of the issues. From our experience, the Kodak is definitely a great fit for us if all of the outstanding issues are resolved. I am just not sure if they will be. To be very honest, we have not really dug into inkjet because of the volumes needed to really justify it but yes in this crazy bizarro paper market, paper availability is something we have to consider as well. Our current allocation most definitely does not include inkjet compatible paper.

 

[pippip]

Sorry I wouldn't be familiar with high end presses but just looking at the Nexfinity would the HP Indigo be comparable?
To be honest I know the Iridesse is an amazing press but why would Xerox be offering a 475k per month press for a client running 1.5m per month???
I'd be concerned on downtime if it's not originally built for that volume. Obviously this is different if you can buy two machines and spread the load.