Novice - buying a versant 80

Ynot_UK

Well-known member
If you're buying digital 64pp 80GSM A4 full bleed CMYK finished booklets for slightly north of £1.00/unit then your supplier is not making much money at all and IMO you'd be mad to contemplate bringing the process in-house.
  • 64 clicks makes 2 x A4 64pp booklets
  • you've said they are printed 'edge to 'edge' therefore they must be printed on (slightly more expensive) digital SRA3 substrate, instead of A3
  • the sheets are then guillotined offline before being finished on a booklet maker with front edge trimmer
On this job you will never in a million years get a capex to wash its face...
  • you are being well looked after by your current supplier with the unit cost you're paying
  • with a reasonable CPC and buying paper in volume from the merchants, your cost per booklet won't get below £1.00
    • bear in mind paper has already gone up twice so far in 2021
  • if you were to bring in-house, you'll also have these additional costs that you don't have with outsourcing...
    • asset depreciation on the press
    • electricity
    • enabling costs for the press (e.g. providing a new 32A radial circuit & isolator, floor levelling/base plate, etc.)
    • finishing equipment depreciation (guillotine, booklet maker with edge trimmer/squarefold)
    • suitable storage for substrates
    • space (unless you are in the enviable position of having loads of unused square footage in your shop)
    • labour
  • I assume the job is digital because the quantities are small. If the quantities were into the thousands, then it becomes an outsourced litho job, which I guess you are aware, is a much cheaper process for volumes than digital.
Put all this into excel and run the numbers for yourself.
 
Last edited:

Dan2122

Active member
If you're buying digital 64pp 80GSM A4 full bleed CMYK finished booklets for slightly north of £1.00/unit then your supplier is not making much money at all and IMO you'd be mad to contemplate bringing the process in-house.
  • 64 clicks makes 2 x A4 64pp booklets (printing 2-up)
  • you've said they are printed 'edge to 'edge' therefore they must be printed on (slightly more expensive) digital SRA3 substrate, instead of A3
  • the sheets are then guillotined offline before being finished on a booklet maker with edge trimmer
On this job you will never in a million years get a capex to wash its face...
  • you are being well looked after by your current supplier with the unit cost you're paying
  • with a reasonable CPC and buying paper in volume from the merchants, your cost per booklet won't get below £1.00
    • bear in mind paper has already gone up twice so far in 2021
  • if you were to bring in-house, you'll also have these additional costs that you don't have with outsourcing...
    • asset depreciation on the press
    • electricity
    • enabling costs for the press (e.g. providing a new 32A radial circuit & isolator, floor levelling/base plate, etc.)
    • finishing equipment depreciation (guillotine, booklet maker with edge trimmer/squarefold)
    • suitable storage for substrates
    • space (unless you are in the enviable position of having loads of unused square footage in your shop)
    • labour
  • I assume the job is digital because the quantities are small. If the quantities were into the thousands, then it becomes an outsourced litho job, which I guess you are aware, is a much cheaper process for volumes than digital.
Put all this into excel and run the numbers for yourself.
Yeah plan was to print double sided sra3 use a plockmatic to fold and trim down to a4 booklet. Thanks for all your feedback it’s been really helpful!
 

bcr

Well-known member
Buy the machine outright, as opposed to leasing, if that works for you (we have always done that)
But a CPC contract with response times that work for your business, are essential.
One other thing, I guess if you’re currently doing just large format, you may have a rotary trimmer but not a guillotine (stack cutter). You will likely need one, as clicks are typically charged the same for all sizes up to SRA3.
If for example, you’re printing A5 leaflets, you’ll want to print them 4-up on A3 (or SRA3 if full bleed or coated) then trim on the guillotine.
And check if the booklet maker will work in full offline mode so that you can print, trim and then feed into the booklet maker.

I have Ricoh c5310's and got the booklet finisher as an afterthought more than anything. Also have the cover interposer and had assumed I could feed the full pre printed and trimmed contents and cover of a booklet into it via the post inserter. But according to the tech that's not possible - I can insert a pre printed cover but can't feed it all in without printing something as well.

So those booklet makers then become quite uneconomical for us for longer runs.

I tested all of the features I knew I needed in advance with my own documents and paper types until I was fully satisfied. This was one "nice to have" but not essential feature which is why I didn't do my homework on it. Always do your homework on the things you will rely on.

And never, ever take the word of a salesperson as true unless it's spelled out in unequivocal language in a contract with clear cancellation terms. For things like software as well, if youre signing up to any additional licenses or packages, don't get a deal for the life of the machine or service agreement, but make sure it's got a get out clause every 6 /12 months, something like that
 

Dan2122

Active member
Spoke to a couple of companies this morning, and it sounds as though we can get monoprints at around 0.5p per click, which makes the idea a little more feasible. Just waiting on some more information. Thanks again to everyone who has posted on here. Really appreciated!
 

Ynot_UK

Well-known member
Spoke to a couple of companies this morning, and it sounds as though we can get monoprints at around 0.5p per click, which makes the idea a little more feasible.
Taking your 64pp booklets, what is the colour/B&W split?
I'd (perhaps incorrectly) assumed it was 100% CMYK when working out costs.
 

Ynot_UK

Well-known member
mono inside, colour cover (double sided)
That makes a lot more sense of the unit price you're currently paying of just north of £1.00/booklet. Yesterday I was struggling to understand how it was worthwhile for your supplier as your price would have been at or very close to cost of just clicks + paper.

If this job alone is the primary reason for bringing in-house, you'll be better off running the guts on a B/W press and post-inserting the colour covers.
A B/W click on a B/W machine will be under half of a B/W click on a colour machine.
We tend to produce booklets with a 60/40 colour split, therefore run them on the C4080, but I wouldn't do that if only the cover was CMYK.
 

Dan2122

Active member
That makes a lot more sense of the unit price you're currently paying of just north of £1.00/booklet. Yesterday I was struggling to understand how it was worthwhile for your supplier as your price would have been at or very close to cost of just clicks + paper.

If this job alone is the primary reason for bringing in-house, you'll be better off running the guts on a B/W press and post-inserting the colour covers.
A B/W click on a B/W machine will be under half of a B/W click on a colour machine.
We tend to produce booklets with a 60/40 colour split, therefore run them on the C4080, but I wouldn't do that if only the cover was CMYK.

Thanks, yeah one of the guys said it might be smarter to do it that way, then have an offline booklet maker...
Quite excited at the thought of bringing our digital work inhouse.
 

wonderings

Well-known member
You could also connect with Xerox themselves, they do (at least here in Canada) sell used machines as well with service contracts. As others have said, I would not go with a digital press without a service contract. Tons of little things can go and wrong and they will. The service contract gets you parts and a tech who knows the machine to keep you up and running. We had a Versant 2100 and I loved that press, super reliable, consistent colour and could even print envelopes! The V80 is just the smaller version of the V2100 and think the print engine is pretty much the same so quality is good. If talking with Xerox or any reseller try and get demos of YOUR jobs, not theirs. Run the very thing you want to do with it and see how registration is and if it will indeed work for you. Their demos show what they want you to see but it may not be something you will ever do yourself.
 

sidneykidney

Well-known member
Not sure of your intended job dimensions but be aware a UK based V80 will normally only do up to 488mm in length. V80s in other regions could do banner length 600mm+. So if landscape A4 booklets or 6 page portrait A4s are needed you'll need a banner machine.

The next model V180 would do banners.
I'm based in North London and also have a Versant 80. Are you sure about the region thing. I'm able to print onto a 660mm long sheet through tray 5 feeder tray but it only works on stock up to 220gsm so if I have to use a heavier stock, I increase the temperature on the fuser.
 

pippip

Well-known member
I'm based in North London and also have a Versant 80. Are you sure about the region thing. I'm able to print onto a 660mm long sheet through tray 5 feeder tray but it only works on stock up to 220gsm so if I have to use a heavier stock, I increase the temperature on the fuser.

I'm in Ireland and they wouldn't/couldn't activate it for me. We bought off Xerox direct and I enquired about purchasing the license just after we got it (4yrs ago).
I know elsewhere in the world it was activated nearly as standard, didn't realise the UK were able to do it? I would have pushed Xerox here harder if I'd known that.

Do you need a certain finisher unit? we have the standard booklet maker finisher unit....i think.
 

gazfocus

Well-known member
That makes a lot more sense of the unit price you're currently paying of just north of £1.00/booklet. Yesterday I was struggling to understand how it was worthwhile for your supplier as your price would have been at or very close to cost of just clicks + paper.

If this job alone is the primary reason for bringing in-house, you'll be better off running the guts on a B/W press and post-inserting the colour covers.
A B/W click on a B/W machine will be under half of a B/W click on a colour machine.
We tend to produce booklets with a 60/40 colour split, therefore run them on the C4080, but I wouldn't do that if only the cover was CMYK.
Don't forget suppliers that do trade printing won't be using digital presses and will be using massive litho presses that are running 24/7. They will be running at less than a penny per sheet for CMYK.

@Dan2122 We used to be the same as alot of others I imagine. I bought Konica office MFP's and relied on cheap toners off eBay (if you do want to go it alone, Konica machines are much cheaper to run and much easier to maintain), but after a lot of agro, we bought a used Xerox on a service contract (CPC). We were so relieved every time something went wrong.

We now have a Konica C3070 and there have been incidents where an engineer has been on site multiple times across a couple of weeks to get to the bottom of the issue. We had a fault where the Fuser wasn't heating up correctly. We had different engineers out 5 or 6 times and Konica finally agreed to replace the entire Fuser even though our machine had only done 100k-150k clicks. When I asked how much a Fuser costs, they said 'around £3,000'....man was I glad of the service contract at that point.

Moral of the story, I would never buy another production machine without a service contract.
 

PrintingInLincs

Well-known member
I got a Versant 180 in April. I would advise anyone against getting one (though many disagree)... I am doing far less volume on it yet spending far more time sorting orders.
 

PricelineNegotiator

Well-known member
I got a Versant 180 in April. I would advise anyone against getting one (though many disagree)... I am doing far less volume on it yet spending far more time sorting orders.
I would advise readers of this forum to ignore this user. We tried for a very long time to help him. He is a stubborn and does not wish to better understand his printing system. I, and many other users on this forum, can attest to the Versant 180's capabilities. It's a great machine.
 

PrintingInLincs

Well-known member
I would advise readers of this forum to ignore this user. We tried for a very long time to help him. He is a stubborn and does not wish to better understand his printing system. I, and many other users on this forum, can attest to the Versant 180's capabilities. It's a great machine.
It's people like you that make people not bother with this forum anymore. It is untrue & not only have I spent 100's of hours trying to get better results from the machine but have invested plenty of money in attempts to rectify the issues experienced. Don't speak for others. My experiences are my own & I got on massively better with the Xerox 550.
 

PricelineNegotiator

Well-known member
It's people like you that make people not bother with this forum anymore. It is untrue & not only have I spent 100's of hours trying to get better results from the machine but have invested plenty of money in attempts to rectify the issues experienced. Don't speak for others. My experiences are my own & I got on massively better with the Xerox 550.
Right...

If you feel like reading over 100 posts about this person's interactions with his Versant 180, here is the link:

This forum was and remains to be an amazing source for printing knowledge. You are talking out of your a$$ because you had a negative experience with your machine. We tried to help you, for 5 months. You ignored most of what we had to say, for reasons I do not understand. There is nothing else to say.
 

AP90

Well-known member
It's people like you that make people not bother with this forum anymore. It is untrue & not only have I spent 100's of hours trying to get better results from the machine but have invested plenty of money in attempts to rectify the issues experienced. Don't speak for others. My experiences are my own & I got on massively better with the Xerox 550.
If your still having problems with this machine, why dont you pay for someone like me to come over and figure things out for you? If your honestly spending as much time as you say on trying to get this machine to work, a plane ticket and a few nights in a hotel would make you come out waayyyyy ahead. Seriously, you should look into this. I and others on this forum would be willing to help. Im not going to act like I have the most knowledge of anyone on here, but I feel fairly confident after running a 1000i for 3 years and a Versant 3100 for 4 years that I could provide you with some much needed training and knowledge about how to streamline your process. Seriously, I printed one of your posters with your required margin and I had it done in a matter of a few minutes. That was file set up, printing, cutting. I could pump out 100/day doing it manually. If you have a good guillotine, 1000's/day is no question.

You last mentioned you printed all day for 3 usable prints when you used to do 30. If your profit is $5/poster (no clue, just spitballing here) then your loosing out on $130/day or $650/week. I just checked and a plane ticket for me to go over there is $600-700. With 2 weeks lost revenue you can have me over there showing you how the job can get done and guarantee you'll be getting 30+/day out.
 

PricelineNegotiator

Well-known member
If your still having problems with this machine, why dont you pay for someone like me to come over and figure things out for you? If your honestly spending as much time as you say on trying to get this machine to work, a plane ticket and a few nights in a hotel would make you come out waayyyyy ahead. Seriously, you should look into this. I and others on this forum would be willing to help. Im not going to act like I have the most knowledge of anyone on here, but I feel fairly confident after running a 1000i for 3 years and a Versant 3100 for 4 years that I could provide you with some much needed training and knowledge about how to streamline your process. Seriously, I printed one of your posters with your required margin and I had it done in a matter of a few minutes. That was file set up, printing, cutting. I could pump out 100/day doing it manually. If you have a good guillotine, 1000's/day is no question.

You last mentioned you printed all day for 3 usable prints when you used to do 30. If your profit is $5/poster (no clue, just spitballing here) then your loosing out on $130/day or $650/week. I just checked and a plane ticket for me to go over there is $600-700. With 2 weeks lost revenue you can have me over there showing you how the job can get done and guarantee you'll be getting 30+/day out.
 
K

kalxn

Guest
Hi Dan, welcome.
At this juncture I’ll give you just one piece of advice.
Don’t buy any digital press and then look for support retrospectively. Let your chosen dealer source you a refurbished machine, on a ‘cost per click’ contract. Whether it’s Xerox, KM, Ricoh or Canon doesn’t really matter.
This topic comes up regularly on the forum, please search out the content and read up. I can virtually guarantee if you don’t take this advice, yours will add to the list of those that end in tears.
got it.
 

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