Offset Printing Ink Density Variations

animal

New member
Hello Guys,

I note many print companies mention they use set densities when printing.
We are set to run FOGRA39 when printing on coated paper,
ideally we would be using densities of:
Cyan 1.45, Magenta 1.40, Yellow 1.40, Black 1.85.

However we find every job is different and these values fluctuate,
I am told some print companies print the same densities no matter what the job.

How do you achieve fixed densities or is this a colour management issue (we colour match proofs but don't use colour management for plate production)

Any ideas?

thanks
André
 
Are you saying that you have to change your densities to achieve a better visual match to a proof?

If that is the case how is the proof printed?
Does your proof represent FOGRA39?
What viewing conditions are you looking at your proof/press sheet under?
Does you press sheet's white point conform to FOGRA39?
What ink are you using?
How is your trapping?
How is your TVI?
 
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Yellow 1.40? Clarify your band width on your densitometer and a few more details about press, consumables and stock brand usage ratio.
 
> Arossetti
• Proof does represent FOGRA39 yes.
• Viewing conditions are under artificial light. Natural light is nearby but we usually don't use it.
• No I don't believe our white point is measured to F39.
• Ink: Fusion G
• Trapping is applied In-Rip to both proofs and plates in the same way
• TVI: Dot Gain? We have measured the press dot gain and applied the curve to the RIP to compensate.

> D Ink Man
• We print with a Ryobi 520 GX Offset Press, has 5 units. Also have a 1 colour GTO press.
• Measuring several jobs the yellow for example runs from 1.10-1.30.
• Plates are made with a Kodak Magnus 400 CTP system with Kodak Sonora XP plates.

hope that helps.
 
Re trapping I was curious as to your wet ink trapping or the accuracy of your RGB overprints to rule that out. For TVI or dot gain I was curious if they are stable from run to run job to job. I want to know how stable your press is. No amount of color management will fix an unstable environment so it is important to be confident with press.

If you are having to jerk your dmax around to compensate for something happening in the live image area those are the places I would look. I'm assuming you also are only comparing coated stock, we are ignoring uncoated correct?
 
Hello Guys,

I note many print companies mention they use set densities when printing.
We are set to run FOGRA39 when printing on coated paper,
ideally we would be using densities of:
Cyan 1.45, Magenta 1.40, Yellow 1.40, Black 1.85.

However we find every job is different and these values fluctuate,
I am told some print companies print the same densities no matter what the job.

How do you achieve fixed densities or is this a colour management issue (we colour match proofs but don't use colour management for plate production)

Any ideas?

thanks
André

What is your ink sequence. The standard is KCMY. If you're running KCMY then M is typically 10 points higher than C - it wouldn't be lower.
What status are your densitometers (hand held/press side) set to? Status T or status E. Are they set to the same status? If they are set to Status T then Yellow should be about 1.05. If they are set to status E then Yellow will measure about 1.15.

The absolute SID values are not so critical (instrument variation). What is more important is the relation ship - K highest, C+M lower than K. M about 10 points higher than C (KCMY sequence), Y lowest.

What is the range of "fluctuations"? Typically the tolerance is between +/- .10.

A press does not image like a proofer. It is normal for the press operator to have to adjust SIDs to account for inline ink usage. However, if the press operator always has to adjust SIDs in the same direction (e.g. always lower for all colors) to align the press to the proof then the proofer and press are not set up correctly.
 
> Arrosetti
Yes we are talking about Coated - Uncoated we have separate values which appear to be more stable.

> Gordo
I believe we are status T
Our scanners run across the colourbar and are handheld.
We have an example of a job where the Cyan jumps up to 1.7 which is quite a bit higher than some that print 1.4 or 1.5 so although the fluctuation is often +/- .10 it is sometimes more.
The yellow is sometimes higher than the magenta by .05
We print Black / Cyan / Magenta / Yellow

Please note we just recalibrated the epson proofing printer to make sure the colours were up-to-date, will post how that goes.

thanks for your help so far guys!
 
> Arrosetti
Yes we are talking about Coated - Uncoated we have separate values which appear to be more stable.

> Gordo
I believe we are status T
Our scanners run across the colourbar and are handheld.
We have an example of a job where the Cyan jumps up to 1.7 which is quite a bit higher than some that print 1.4 or 1.5 so although the fluctuation is often +/- .10 it is sometimes more.
The yellow is sometimes higher than the magenta by .05
We print Black / Cyan / Magenta / Yellow

Please note we just recalibrated the epson proofing printer to make sure the colours were up-to-date, will post how that goes.

thanks for your help so far guys!

Assuming your information is correct - you've got some serious problems. You're not going to solve them by color management or twiddling ink densities. If I walked into a shop and was told what you're telling us I would start with a thorough process audit starting with prepress and then out to press.
 
So K-C-M-Y is your rotation, correct? Also, which vendor ink series do you use, very important information needed. Be specific to brand name of those inks. Thanks.

D
 
I am told uncoated seems stable, it's coated we have the variation on.

> KDW - your K sounds high, thanks for your reply.

> Gordo
Appreciate your feedback. As you understand this is a very complicated area and not something you can easily fix in-house hence we have been talking to the boss about reviewing the whole system using someone external.

> D Ink Man
We are using DIC fusion G low tack vegetable oil ink from Japan
hope that helps.

thanks guys
André
 
I am told uncoated seems stable, it's coated we have the variation on.

> KDW - your K sounds high, thanks for your reply.

> Gordo
Appreciate your feedback. As you understand this is a very complicated area and not something you can easily fix in-house hence we have been talking to the boss about reviewing the whole system using someone external.

> D Ink Man
We are using DIC fusion G low tack vegetable oil ink from Japan
hope that helps.

thanks guys
André

KDW's K may be high (but that could just be how his instrument reports density). The important thing is the SID relationships which are correct.

It sounds like a good idea to get someone external involved. One way to look at it though is that rather than thinking in terms of trying to fix the situation, try and think in terms diagnosing the situation. Similar to how a doctor deals with a patient - first they evaluate the patient's condition (the audit I mentioned), then they diagnose the probable issue(s), then they plan out a therapy to resolve the issue. Auditing your manufacturing process should be an ongoing constant. It is simply a part of controlling the process. Good luck.
 
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You need a thorough check of your printing press from front to back, rollers, dampening, inking system, blankets/packings. Only when you have a press that is in good working order can you begin to stabilize your process. You cannot begin to have good pre press if your press is giving a moving target. Just my opinion
 
You need a thorough check of your printing press from front to back, rollers, dampening, inking system, blankets/packings. Only when you have a press that is in good working order can you begin to stabilize your process. You cannot begin to have good pre press if your press is giving a moving target. Just my opinion

It's not an opinion if it's correct.
 
In addition to all the responses above, after going thru many phases of color management and curves for presswork, keep this in mind:

The coverage on each individual sheet will affect TVI. The coverage varies a little, sometimes a lot, from run to run, so you will find it necessary to adjust SIDs somewhat to account for that.
Also, where the patch you're measuring in relation to that coverage will affect it. I'd say from my experience +\-10pts density is not unusual, sometimes even 20pts to get a better proof match.
It all depends on the specific colors required on each run, some will have high M coverage, some high C coverage. If your 50% Cyan patch is in line with heavy coverage on one job but then in line with little or no coverage on the next, your measured result will vary.

We installed pressSIGN about a year and a half ago, since then, monitoring color and TVI on job after job, I'm amazed at how much TVI varies from run to run and even from the start to the end of a run, from morning to evening, from Friday night to Monday morning fresh starts. I come to realize curves can only be made from a rather large average of jobs and measurements.

So yes, TVI can vary from run to run depending on what the coverage of that specific run is, so you do have to adjust SIDs somewhat. And color management does not mean you will get an exact match in all colors, some will be closer than others at standard densities, so again, if you're job has a color that isn't really close then some adjustment may be necessary. Realize this also, your proof, while totally verified and certified, with an overall dE of less than 1 or 2, still isn't matching every color perfectly either, but will be way more consistent than an offset press, while your press is within standard at dE of 5 or less and has some colors exceeding that. The proof could be off a little one way and your press another but both still within tolerance on a particular color, so again, it depends a lot on the specific color you're trying to match on each individual run.

So you are striving for an average condition that will give you consistent results over time, not necessarily an exact match on all colors, every run, that would be ideal but it isn't realistic. That is a battle we have here, pressman color adjusting every job on press to look better when if he just leaves it alone, at set densities, we get a pretty good "pleasing match" to our proofs and every time we run that job, we will get very similar results. To me, that's the benefit of running to a standard. Keep in mind also that when you start adjusting SIDs away from a standard, you can affect other parameters also, like TVI, and Trap (overprint color), so sometimes when he starts adjusting a job to try and affect a better score in pressSIGN, the overall scores actually go down. At this point though, he's still trying to do that, instead of just running to standard densities, letting me adjust curves periodically, and being consistent. Hey the scores are in the dark green, 80 or higher, sometimes in the 90s and he's still trying to adjust it a little. The problem with that is then I don't get good data from those adjusted densities to create new curves.

There will be variation, there are some colors that don't match nearly as well as others, hopefully most do, hopefully your result is really close to the same every time. Consistency.
 
In addition to all the responses above, after going thru many phases of color management and curves for presswork, keep this in mind:

The coverage on each individual sheet will affect TVI. The coverage varies a little, sometimes a lot, from run to run, so you will find it necessary to adjust SIDs somewhat to account for that.
Also, where the patch you're measuring in relation to that coverage will affect it. I'd say from my experience +\-10pts density is not unusual, sometimes even 20pts to get a better proof match.
It all depends on the specific colors required on each run, some will have high M coverage, some high C coverage. If your 50% Cyan patch is in line with heavy coverage on one job but then in line with little or no coverage on the next, your measured result will vary.

Very true. This type of problem is press design related. Different press designs will have different levels of problems with this issue.

This does not mean that it is impossible to have an offset press designed so that variations in coverage will not have the related solid density target issue.

Anicolor is an offset lithographic press and it would not have the type of problems you bring up. The way it inks the plate is independent of coverage and therefore there should not be any variation in dot gain due to coverage. Therefore a standard density can be applied for any coverage print.

Anicolor is just one press design that solves this issue. It is possible to design a more conventional press roller train so it also would have consistent dot gains independent of coverage when printing at standard densities.

If one has a press that is not capable of printing consistent dot gain values that are independent of coverage, one can not properly obtain a characteristic data base for how the press will print because there isn't one. You are condemned to chasing your tail forever.

So after over 100 years of offset, the industry still can not understand that to obtain consistent density, one needs consistent ink feed. And to obtain consistent dot gain values, one needs to manage the ink films on the form roller based on the design of the press.

These problems are and will always be at the core of frustration for printers. The inconsistent dot gain vs coverage and print image patterns have been known for a very long time but have not been properly corrected by designing the problem out of the press.

These issues in this thread are core issues but the industry does not want to fundamentally correct them, they are just happy to have all the press operators, prepress staff work their butts off trying to always find some workaround that gets them through the day. But that is what people deserve since they don't ask for something better and accept the present situation as being normal. Kind of sad.
 
The 3 most important things in the pressroom, "Coverage, Coverage, Coverage". Great writing Prepper.

Erik, you may want to chime in about your ink transfer blade concept. D Ink Man, you may want to contribute about your belief in variable strength inks based on total form 'coverage'. Nevertheless, thank you all for your inputs.

D
 
D Ink Man, you may want to contribute about your belief in variable strength inks based on total form 'coverage'.

Are you saying that you sell inks that vary their strength based on image content/coverage? Please elucidate.
 
Gordo, no I don't sell ink based on that. However I conceive that devising a system that does adjust process colors based on each print forms take off is a good avenue of approach for consistent printing which could result in equilateral consumption of all four colors. This has been talked about before in the forums. D Ink Man
 

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