Poll: Prepress preference; RGB vs. CMYK

[kire]

I really cant see the problems because both environments need to understand each others. From a designers perspective its much more easy to stay in RGB modus when they work with photos/illustrations, then they only have three channels to work with and all files they works with are RGB(screen,scanner,digital photos) all other colors that they us as solids are usually CMYK. A good printer will not have any problems to convert this flow into his environment with a good result, but a lot of printers will probably not so then I agree that its best with CMYK from the designers. This is 2009 so it should not be a major problem to colour manage this issues.

regards kire

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

I think the real issue is not RGB or CMYK.

a) The issue is unmanaged RGB (ie using RGB files and turning Colour Management off because it is scary)
b) CMYK only (homogenous workflow…Â*one type of paper/printing condidtion)

Managed colour
c) Managing colour RGB and CMYK mixed
d) Managed RGB and CMYK unmanaged

Those advocating CMYK workflow are usually those with workflow a or b or poor implementation of c.
This is ofcourse overly simplified, but asking RGB or CMYK is a one bit question and has no levels of gray.

 

[dgraves]

Reason for the original post/poll: Customer was on the internet and stated that he read that most printers prefer RGB. I told him I can do both, but after a year and a half of producing extremely very high quality work (books of 180+ pages, stochastic, quality photography) and utilizing a CMYK workflow, why change now?
I stated I thought the ratio of CMYK to RGB at print houses was probably 80/20. So far I was pretty close.....

 

[rich apollo]

RGB or CMYK? Don't care - just, please, tag the files. If you don't tag the files you're screwed either way.

 

[pcmodem]

Question for those who are for RGB workflows.

If you have an object in your page layout app and want it to match the color in an RGB photo. How do you go about this? In a CMYK workflow you use the eye dropper in the photo and get the CMYK value.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Match colour to what? This is why I split the question (and maybe you should split the question to your customer too).
Badly managed colour is allways a problem. For an RGB workflow, best option is to use proofing preview for the intended CMYK condition and measure the values. (CMYK values if you like)
So you may ask if you are measuring CMYK values why not convert it to CMYK right away…*well adjustment layers work way differently in RGB, and it leaves the back door open to change to another printing method paper.
I do not doubt that CMYK will get great results, what I am saying is that poorly handled or colour management with insufficient knowledge and experience, it is less destructive to leave RGB files in RGB.
What I find is the biggest problem is when a cusomer converts a file to CMYK and then tweaks it with an uncallibrated monitor…*much more likely to screw up greybalance and overdoo total ink, if they then assign it your profile preflight programs will think it is a custom picture that you have tweaked and will let it race unchecked through the system (cutting ink may save it in post press, but you will hae major areas of flat dark colour)

 

[claude72]

b) CMYK only (homogenous workflow…�*one type of paper/printing condidtion)

Most printshop work only with coated paper! and as the defaut profile in Photoshop is a coated profile, it works not so bad: generally the error is in the range that can be corrected with the ink flow settings on the press, and everything goes...

... and when the customer wants another paper (recycled or uncoated), they convince him with any possible arguments, true or even false, to use coated paper... many, many, many printshop work this way!!!

 

[gordo]

... and when the customer wants another paper (recycled or uncoated), they convince him with any possible arguments, true or even false, to use coated paper... many, many, many printshop work this way!!!

I agree with your comment about PShop. IMHO, at least in N America and SE Asia, creatives simply do a mode change from RGB to CMYK using PShop's defaults - no matter what print condition will be the final output. It may be a different situation in Europe and other parts of the world though.

I think that many printers simply use tone corrections curves in their CtP and perhaps slightly higher SIDs to get the best possible result on uncoated paper - and through samples, explain the difference in appearance to the print buyer before going on press.

best, gordon p

Quality In Print

 

[claude72]

I agree with your comment about PShop. IMHO, at least in N America and SE Asia, creatives simply do a mode change from RGB to CMYK using PShop's defaults - no matter what print condition will be the final output. It may be a different situation in Europe and other parts of the world though.

Unfortunetaly, it's exactly the same in France, and probably in the rest of Europe!!! Most designers simply click on "CMYK mode", and that's done...
During many years (at least since Photoshop 6 or 7) defaut profile was SWOP coated, even for european release of Photoshop, and all the pictures I received in CMYK were tagged with SWOP coated profile...

... since Photoshop 8, Adobe has included a (modified) Fogra27 profile in the french localized Photoshop... so, since 4-5 years I receive most pictures including Fogra27 profile (and still some with the old SWOP profil)...
... and many pictures tagged with a recent SWOP profile, made by people working with a pirated american demo of Photoshop activated with a crack!!!

3 different profiles, but always the Photoshop's default profile!!!

I think that many printers simply use tone corrections curves in their CtP and perhaps slightly higher SIDs to get the best possible result on uncoated paper

Perhaps... but many printers I know never touch to anything in their RIP: the RIP is set and the imagesetter calibrated by the man who installed it, and nobody in the print-shop dare to touch anything in this devil machine...: they start the computer, RIP software is launching automaticaly, they open the preview of the jobs, and they switch off the computer at the end of the day... that's all!!!
And they even don't know what is a tone corrections curve...

And I saw - and heared - print-shop managers trying to convince their customer to use normal coated paper instead of recycled paper, arguing every possible unbelievable bull-shit, like: recycled paper is not enough white, more expensive, made with OGM trees, makes more pollution, kills the forest, cost a lot of water, uses more chemicals to be whitened, and so on... just because they simply didn't know how to print on recycled paper, just because they didn't know how to adapt the picture and the films/plates to print correctly on recycled paper!!!

 

[Louis Dery]

And I saw - and heared - print-shop managers trying to convince their customer to use normal coated paper instead of recycled paper, arguing every possible unbelievable bull-shit, like: recycled paper is not enough white, more expensive, made with OGM trees, makes more pollution, kills the forest, cost a lot of water, uses more chemicals to be whitened, and so on... just because they simply didn't know how to print on recycled paper, just because they didn't know how to adapt the picture and the films/plates to print correctly on recycled paper!!!

Hi Claude72,
Agree with you!

Maybe this link info could be of interest about printing on recycle paper AND getting good color reproduction:
Cascades Fine Papers Group - ICC Color profile

Louis

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

OK so when is the time for enlightenment? Are we just to give up? I just don't get it we never had better technology, and yet we are outputtig second best because nobody cares?? If we spent the time learning our tools instead of arguing with customers that "second best is all you are ever going to get"?
Many customers even if they use coated paper will re-use artwork in newsprint and would benifit greatly from adopting an RGB workflow.
If you are just using photoshops conversion to CMYK there is no reason why you cannot skip the step and do the RGB to CMYK when exporting from InDesign instead.

 

[claude72]

OK so when is the time for enlightenment?

Working with a RGB workfow needs to learn this new method: it's taught to the new generations in good DTP schools...

... and for the old CMYK workflow users - proud of their great and long experience in CMYK workflow - the RGB workflow needs to "throw away" many years of experience and habits and obliges them to become beginners again to learn a completely new way of work, that seems to them - at first sight - completely extravagant: it needs good teachers that have great references and great pedagogic habilities!!! (or it needs an order from the boss! )


It also need to understand the advantages of using a new method: unfortunately (in my country) many people think that the way they do their job is the best, because they always use this way since many years, and they don't see any reason to change... even if they are wrong, even when new methods are better, and even if they, in fact, make "second best" jobs or "third best" jobs (or worst).
Bring that kind of stupid dinosaur to change their methods of working is very difficult, because they are sure they do the best and that there is no need of enlightenment, no need of change... and the use of a RGB workflow becomes then more a human problem than a technological problem.

RGB workflow is the best method, and sure it will be the standard method in all print shops... but only in 20 years... after all CMYK-workflow dinosaurs-users have been retired... or fired!