Upgrading from Xerox V180. Options?

[lantz_xvx]

Hey folks,

We are nearing the end of our lease on the Xerox V180 and we have been having a lot of issues with it. We have to place a service call every other week, on average, for issues with the 2nd BTR, the little plastic rollers that, if messed up, prevent paper from feeding from the high capacity trays, and lots of other stupid little things. We are also in the middle of a billing issue from July where they billed us for CEL clicks we never used, so I called them that day to see if they wanted me to just supply the actual number and subtract that charge from the invoice and pay the balance. No response. I sent many emails and tried calling many times over the next few months, and only now, at the end of October, does it seem like it might be getting resolved. This happened one other time before and it's a total nightmare because if you have outstanding invoices (I made clear that we would not pay incorrect invoices, but would happily pay promptly as soon as the issue was resolved), they won't ship your supplies or release service calls. It makes it very difficult to function as a business when no one responds to your questions, places a block on your supplies (and won't tell you), and blocks your service calls (but won't tell you) until you call and go up the chain of command.

Anyway, all that is to say that we may not want to stay with Xerox given all of us. There's really no reason for this level of incompetence. At the same time, we are familiar with the Versant machines and the easiest thing is to just get the next machine up and call it a day. I'm not sure what to do, probably any company will have its share of crappy customer service situations. But we are thinking of upgrading to either the V280, which I realize is a slightly older machine at this point, or switching machines entirely and going with something like a Ricoh.

We do postcards, business cards, books and booklets, posters, etc, ranging on stocks from 70# text to 100# silk text and to 130# cover. This machine won't auto-duplex 130# cover so we are looking for a machine that will. We do all of our finishing offline so don't need integrated bookletmaking or anything like that. The first digital press we ever had was a Konica and I have serious PTSD from it. Can't go back! Then we had a Xerox C75, then the V180. I've seen other threads where people lament the registration of the V180 or the color, but we actually have not had any of those issues. The SIQA works way better on this machine than it did on the C75, registration does shift a little bit here and there but such is digital printing. I've never used a Ricoh so wouldn't know what their analog to a V280 would be. Anyone have any insights? I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,
- Lantz

 

[azehnali]

you should have gone to the printing united show

 

[Ynot_UK]

The first digital press we ever had was a Konica and I have serious PTSD from it. Can't go back!

@lantz_xvx out of interest, which model KM did you have?

 

[lantz_xvx]

@lantz_xvx out of interest, which model KM did you have?

We had a Bizhubpro C5501 I believe, it's been ages so I may be misremembering the exact model but it was definitely a Bizhubpro.

 

[Ynot_UK]

The C5501 was one of KM's very early (possibly the first) production machines, launched in 2008.
So much has changed in the past 15 years, and the turning point was the introduction of the C1060/C1070 in 2014, those machines were a game changer.
The current models (C4070/C4080) are another three generations further advanced. We have a C4080 and would recommend it as a good all round colour production machine. Really nice quality output and performs at its best when worked hard. We don't have the IQ-501 however so long as you do the front & back settings at the start of a job, it registers accurately throughout.

 

[TJPrinter]

I upgraded from the V80 and the registration and color consistency are much better on the V280. I’ve had a few other small problems that I never had on the V80 but the 2nd BTR issue is horrendous on the V280 if you run coated stock, especially coated card stock. You’ll need to convince Xerox to let you keep a spare 2nd BTR unit on the shelf and good luck with that. This is a serious problem with the Versant 280 and Xerox just doesn’t seem to care to correct it.

It’s a very productive machine but the 2nd BTR issue has convinced me to stay away from the Versant if you run mostly coated stock. I’m writing this as I’m waiting for a new 2nd BTR to hopefully arrive next day air because my Xerox dealer didn’t have any spares in stock. To date there is NO permanent fix for this issue. If you run mostly uncoated stock, then the 2nd BTR problem is not a big issue and then it’s a great machine.

Then there’s the big question, where is Xerox headed?

 

[SoggyWinter]

I upgraded from the V80 and the registration and color consistency are much better on the V280. I’ve had a few other small problems that I never had on the V80 but the 2nd BTR issue is horrendous on the V280 if you run coated stock, especially coated card stock. You’ll need to convince Xerox to let you keep a spare 2nd BTR unit on the shelf and good luck with that. This is a serious problem with the Versant 280 and Xerox just doesn’t seem to care to correct it.

It’s a very productive machine but the 2nd BTR issue has convinced me to stay away from the Versant if you run mostly coated stock. I’m writing this as I’m waiting for a new 2nd BTR to hopefully arrive next day air because my Xerox dealer didn’t have any spares in stock. To date there is NO permanent fix for this issue. If you run mostly uncoated stock, then the 2nd BTR problem is not a big issue and then it’s a great machine.

Then there’s the big question, where is Xerox headed?

Xerox seems to be coasting in a slow downward spiral. Fujifilm and now Sharp are competing with them with the same models, and Fujifilm in 2024 may have a serious iGen competitor with the Revoira (Irridesse) 26x29 B2 Press. I'm wondering of Fujifilm will struggle enough building a service and sales team in north america to buy that part of Xerox...if Xerox.

 

[SoggyWinter]

Hey folks,



Anyway, all that is to say that we may not want to stay with Xerox given all of us. There's really no reason for this level of incompetence. At the same time, we are familiar with the Versant machines and the easiest thing is to just get the next machine up and call it a day. I'm not sure what to do, probably any company will have its share of crappy customer service situations. But we are thinking of upgrading to either the V280, which I realize is a slightly older machine at this point, or switching machines entirely and going with something like a Ricoh.

V3100 here. I'm eyeballing switching to Ricoh C7500, C9500, or Fujifilm Revoiria 1120 (irridesse) if I can get a hybrid self service arrangement. My Xerox service, spare parts, and consumables are solid, but I think it is dumb luck that can disappear at any time.

 

[kslight]

I have a Ricoh 7210x…by far my favorite digital press I’ve used. No machine is perfect but we Almost never see the techs. It just runs. And I have a stash of parts I can easily change if needed. Registration is the best I’ve seen out of any comparable machine. Currently have almost 2 million on it, for reference.


We previously had KMs, and I’ve gone off about them but I’ll just say…not a good experience with them or their machines. Maybe the worst experiences I’ve had overall.


I came from a Xerox shop before that, and…my experiences were similar to yours. Not a fan of the service direction of them and their equipment IMHO is trailing behind the competition.

 

[lantz_xvx]

I upgraded from the V80 and the registration and color consistency are much better on the V280. I’ve had a few other small problems that I never had on the V80 but the 2nd BTR issue is horrendous on the V280 if you run coated stock, especially coated card stock. You’ll need to convince Xerox to let you keep a spare 2nd BTR unit on the shelf and good luck with that. This is a serious problem with the Versant 280 and Xerox just doesn’t seem to care to correct it.

It’s a very productive machine but the 2nd BTR issue has convinced me to stay away from the Versant if you run mostly coated stock. I’m writing this as I’m waiting for a new 2nd BTR to hopefully arrive next day air because my Xerox dealer didn’t have any spares in stock. To date there is NO permanent fix for this issue. If you run mostly uncoated stock, then the 2nd BTR problem is not a big issue and then it’s a great machine.

Then there’s the big question, where is Xerox headed?

The V80 is a way older machine, we have the V180 but yeah, you're about the 2nd BTR. I wouldn't say we run "mostly" coated cover stock but it does come up quite a bit. A lot of our 13x19 posters are on 100# gloss cover, and we use a lot of 100# silk text for booklets, nicer flyers, and lightweight posters. We are not with Xerox proper, but with a company called Carr Business Systems that was bought by Xerox and now it's all just one thing I think? There's no better time than when the machine is new, and even for the first couple of years it pretty much ran without a hitch except for the occasional service call. No machine is perfect and every machine will need a call at some point, it's up to the service provider how good the experience is. I always found it ridiculous to have to wait for things like developer and fusers and stuff like that. You're a service tech going to a print shop, you know that 90% of the time you will be replacing the same three or four parts. Just carry them in the car. I get not wanting to hoard parts for every single tech but there has to be a middle ground somewhere.

 

[lantz_xvx]

The C5501 was one of KM's very early (possibly the first) production machines, launched in 2008.
So much has changed in the past 15 years, and the turning point was the introduction of the C1060/C1070 in 2014, those machines were a game changer.
The current models (C4070/C4080) are another three generations further advanced. We have a C4080 and would recommend it as a good all round colour production machine. Really nice quality output and performs at its best when worked hard. We don't have the IQ-501 however so long as you do the front & back settings at the start of a job, it registers accurately throughout.

Yeah, that machine is super old for sure. Adjusting the registration at the store of each job? Can't do it. Xerox machines aren't perfect but the SIQA adjustment lets me store alignment adjustments that work for many months or sometimes over a year. If I do need to re-do one, it takes about 5 minutes. I can't imagine having to adjust the registration at the start of each job. If I'm going to do that, may as well print offset!

 

[pippip]

If you can hold out I would, Xerox V280, Ricoh 5300 and KM 4070 which are all the main competitors in this class are all 3+ years old now. The previous models to each was 3 years before that so 2024 should see new models for each. You can add Fuji into the mix now with the Revoria Press SC180 / SC170.

 

[lantz_xvx]

If you can hold out I would, Xerox V280, Ricoh 5300 and KM 4070 which are all the main competitors in this class are all 3+ years old now. The previous models to each was 3 years before that so 2024 should see new models for each. You can add Fuji into the mix now with the Revoria Press SC180 / SC170.

I guess it depends on when in 2024. The machine is down or having trouble too much to hold out for too long. I doubt we make any deals before the end of the year, but certainly January we would be looking to get things moving.

 

[Ynot_UK]

Yeah, that machine is super old for sure. Adjusting the registration at the store of each job? Can't do it. Xerox machines aren't perfect but the SIQA adjustment lets me store alignment adjustments that work for many months or sometimes over a year. If I do need to re-do one, it takes about 5 minutes. I can't imagine having to adjust the registration at the start of each job. If I'm going to do that, may as well print offset!

I meant at the start of a long job, particularly where the substrate in given tray/s has changed. To be honest, it holds up pretty well when replenishing the same substrates in the same trays. Perhaps I’m slightly OCD but we often do jobs like tent cards where it’s good not to be even a fraction of an mm out on the crease line. We probably do front & back two or three times a week.

 

[lantz_xvx]

I meant at the start of a long job, particularly where the substrate in given tray/s has changed. To be honest, it holds up pretty well when replenishing the same substrates in the same trays. Perhaps I’m slightly OCD but we often do jobs like tent cards where it’s good not to be even a fraction of an mm out on the crease line. We probably do front & back two or three times a week.

Thanks for clarifying. So I always stick to the same paper in the same trays. I run text weight in tray 6, cover stock in tray 7. We have alignment adjustments for all our main papers and sizes, sometimes something comes along that's a weird paper type and size but will still use an adjustment we already have and that works well enough. Sometimes we will have to create a new one because the size is just too weird, but that's rare. I think two or three times per week is still kind of a lot.

 

[azehnali]

The V80 is a way older machine, we have the V180 but yeah, you're about the 2nd BTR. I wouldn't say we run "mostly" coated cover stock but it does come up quite a bit. A lot of our 13x19 posters are on 100# gloss cover, and we use a lot of 100# silk text for booklets, nicer flyers, and lightweight posters. We are not with Xerox proper, but with a company called Carr Business Systems that was bought by Xerox and now it's all just one thing I think? There's no better time than when the machine is new, and even for the first couple of years it pretty much ran without a hitch except for the occasional service call. No machine is perfect and every machine will need a call at some point, it's up to the service provider how good the experience is. I always found it ridiculous to have to wait for things like developer and fusers and stuff like that. You're a service tech going to a print shop, you know that 90% of the time you will be replacing the same three or four parts. Just carry them in the car. I get not wanting to hoard parts for every single tech but there has to be a middle ground somewhere.

you know that it takes 30 seconds to change the BTR ask them to leave you a spare

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Hey folks,

We are nearing the end of our lease on the Xerox V180 and we have been having a lot of issues with it. We have to place a service call every other week, on average, for issues with the 2nd BTR, the little plastic rollers that, if messed up, prevent paper from feeding from the high capacity trays, and lots of other stupid little things. We are also in the middle of a billing issue from July where they billed us for CEL clicks we never used, so I called them that day to see if they wanted me to just supply the actual number and subtract that charge from the invoice and pay the balance. No response. I sent many emails and tried calling many times over the next few months, and only now, at the end of October, does it seem like it might be getting resolved. This happened one other time before and it's a total nightmare because if you have outstanding invoices (I made clear that we would not pay incorrect invoices, but would happily pay promptly as soon as the issue was resolved), they won't ship your supplies or release service calls. It makes it very difficult to function as a business when no one responds to your questions, places a block on your supplies (and won't tell you), and blocks your service calls (but won't tell you) until you call and go up the chain of command.

Anyway, all that is to say that we may not want to stay with Xerox given all of us. There's really no reason for this level of incompetence. At the same time, we are familiar with the Versant machines and the easiest thing is to just get the next machine up and call it a day. I'm not sure what to do, probably any company will have its share of crappy customer service situations. But we are thinking of upgrading to either the V280, which I realize is a slightly older machine at this point, or switching machines entirely and going with something like a Ricoh.

We do postcards, business cards, books and booklets, posters, etc, ranging on stocks from 70# text to 100# silk text and to 130# cover. This machine won't auto-duplex 130# cover so we are looking for a machine that will. We do all of our finishing offline so don't need integrated bookletmaking or anything like that. The first digital press we ever had was a Konica and I have serious PTSD from it. Can't go back! Then we had a Xerox C75, then the V180. I've seen other threads where people lament the registration of the V180 or the color, but we actually have not had any of those issues. The SIQA works way better on this machine than it did on the C75, registration does shift a little bit here and there but such is digital printing. I've never used a Ricoh so wouldn't know what their analog to a V280 would be. Anyone have any insights? I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,
- Lantz

What's your volume like?

 

[TJPrinter]

you know that it takes 30 seconds to change the BTR ask them to leave you a spare

This makes a lot of sense since it takes longer to get the BTR out of the box than it does to install it. Unfortunately, there are some bean counters that think it’s less expensive to have a tech stop at the office, pick one up and then drive to the customer and install it. All because they don’t want a $500 part sitting on the shelf, down time means little to Xerox. To the credit of Xerox, they have made the majority of serviceable parts simple for a trained user to replace but they just haven’t put the effort into implementing a good program.

What's your volume like?

Xerox recently raised the recommended average monthly volume on the Versant 280 and 4100. With no technical improvements the Versant 280 jumped from 80,000 pages per month to 150,000 pages per month!

 

[lantz_xvx]

What's your volume like?

It really depends, sort of feast or famine over here right now, but in the 200k range.

 

[TJPrinter]

It really depends, sort of feast or famine over here right now, but in the 200k range.

Yikes, 200K every month? Even if you had a brand-new Versant 280 you’d be seeing a tech every other week or more. If you want to stay with Xerox you should be looking at the 4100 with that type of volume.