Which machine?

[Missy Frederick]

Hello, all:
I am shopping for a production printer, and after reading for several weeks the threads found here, it seems that what I'm looking for is probably more of a souped-up office machine. We're needing something that can handle roughly 50,000 copies per month. I'm looking strongly at the KM 6501, but the CEO wants to look at a Canon machine. I'm not sure which Canon model will compare well with the 6501. I've also learned that consensus at PrintPlant is that Canon office machines are fine but fall short in terms of quality where digital printing is concerned.

Could anyone advise me on: a) Is the KM 6501 a good choice based on my projected click count; b) which Canon machine would be a close competitor to the 6501; and c) of the two, which is considered the better machine?

Thanks for any help anyone can provide.

 

[Craig]

Hello, all:
I am shopping for a production printer, and after reading for several weeks the threads found here, it seems that what I'm looking for is probably more of a souped-up office machine. We're needing something that can handle roughly 50,000 copies per month. I'm looking strongly at the KM 6501, but the CEO wants to look at a Canon machine. I'm not sure which Canon model will compare well with the 6501. I've also learned that consensus at PrintPlant is that Canon office machines are fine but fall short in terms of quality where digital printing is concerned.

Could anyone advise me on: a) Is the KM 6501 a good choice based on my projected click count; b) which Canon machine would be a close competitor to the 6501; and c) of the two, which is considered the better machine?

Thanks for any help anyone can provide.

Missy,
Is the projected 50K 8.5x11 28lb text or 50K 12x18 100lb Cover??? That will make all the difference in the world. Also do you project any growth and will the machine handle it? We went from 43,600 on a CLC4000 to 77,300/month just by going to a faster machine, no other changes, no additional marketing, we were just more productive.

If you plan on running predominantly text weights than the 6501 will be fine. If you intend on running a lot of cover weights than I would look at something else. The 6501 is the "souped-up" office machine, I refer to it as Fast Plastic.

A Canon 6000 or 6000VP or a Xerox 5000AP would be a true light to medium production printer, but you'll pay for it. You only need to open the doors and see what sets a production class device apart from the 6501.

The better machine question is only relevant on the intended use of the machine. There is no way I would make a decision like this from a brochure, you need to go out an demo these machines, and I don't mean make a few dozen prints on text weight paper. Take a job that has been a thorn in the side and run several hundred through each device and compare. Go through the machines from the feeder to the finisher, take notes/photo's, look at the paper paths, how the sheets are registered, imaged and fused. Ask about Customer Replaceable Components that will save down time on service. Ask about the monthly duty cycle, the maximum gsm for duplexing, how much does the machine slow down when printing on 220+ gsm paper.

There is a difference between a production class printer and a fast copier, you just need to figure out which one you need. Good Luck!!!

 

[lfelton]

Just a suggestion, but don't limit yourself to Canon 6000/KM6501. Xerox makes some good kit that might be ideal for your environment, i.e. a 262. Excellent print quality and rock solid reliability. Just be aware of the paper handling limitations.

Craig has a point (in there somewhere ) - there are differences in the capabilities of each machine on the market and you need to evaluate those against your specific requirements. That relates to the types of products you manufacture, i.e. we primarily print books, brochures & catalogs so colour fidelity and front-to-back-registration are our hot buttons, continually printing lots of heavy stock isn't.

Bring it back to the group when you've figured out your "must do" list, because there's a lot the sales rep won't tell you. For example; you can forget about printing greetings cards on a KM6501 in a system 7 configuration. The stiff board required for greetings cards gets marked all the way down to 240gsm. Funny enough the engine prints beautifully; it's the conveyance unit that takes the stock to the high cap stacker that marks it, so other configurations will work absolutely fine.

 

[Missy Frederick]

I suppose it would be a good idea to provide a little background so that you kind people can properly advise me. I'm a graphic artist at a small, liberal-arts college. I'm not, nor have I ever been, a press operator. I will, however, be in charge of running and managing this digital machine when we get it. That being said, we need it mostly for promotional posters, flyers, newspaper inserts, postcards, business cards, event programs. So we do plan to use it with heavy stocks and quality is very important, especially with the things that are sent to external audiences.

The sales rep mentioned that a Canon C1 plus might be a good solution for us.

Hope this helps shed some light on my situation. Thanks so much.

 

[UncleSam]

Xerox 700

Xerox 700

Hi Missy,

I would recommend you to look at the Xerox 700. Recently, I'm also shopping for a new digital machine, so, I did get a price quote from Xerox 700 as well as KM6501. Although the sales price of KM6501 is much cheaper, but the leasing monthly payment is higher than the quote for Xerox 700 and also the click charge from Xerox 700 is also cheaper. Not to mention the print quality from Xerox 700 is better than KM6501 and more offset like printing because Xerox 700 using lower temperature for their toner. For your application, I would recommend Xerox 700.

 

[PineyBob]

I suppose it would be a good idea to provide a little background so that you kind people can properly advise me. I'm a graphic artist at a small, liberal-arts college. I'm not, nor have I ever been, a press operator. I will, however, be in charge of running and managing this digital machine when we get it. That being said, we need it mostly for promotional posters, flyers, newspaper inserts, postcards, business cards, event programs. So we do plan to use it with heavy stocks and quality is very important, especially with the things that are sent to external audiences.

The sales rep mentioned that a Canon C1 plus might be a good solution for us.

Hope this helps shed some light on my situation. Thanks so much.

Canon C1 is mighty slow for Production Printing. However if quality is the sole Driver you'll not do better IMO.

If money is no object then I think you have to take Craig's advice and look at the Canon 6000VP and the Xerox 5000AP.

If your college is like most you'll likely need a value purchase like the KM 6501. I don't think the quality is there compared to the three above mentioned machines. However none of them can deliver a good price point for a small liberal arts school like yours.

If it were me I'd configure the KM6501 with the most powerful RIP my budget will allow and insist that the installing dealer train you on every aspect of the RIP so that you as a trained Graphic Artist can make that KM sing.

Stay away from the "Fast Plastic" like the Canon 5185, Toshiba e-Studio 650, most Ricoh products and even the KM550. Not going to get the job done consistantly.

 

[smatros]

canon c1 is very slow
xerox x700 has plenty unresolved issues and very limited papers can be used with it - we have it, so this is first hand. it may be still a valuable choice, but insist on great service contract
xerox dc262 is office machine, not production

it's a tough decision, i know. we are in same situation when fishing for a replacement for the x700.

 

[sweatyclimber]

Missy, My two cents...

Since you are obviously new to some of this.. One factor is YOU the operator. Using these RIP's to their fullest extent and getting these machines to "sing" can be dificult for a new or learning key operator. That being said, Do you have to spend all of your budget now? If you don't you might look at the souped up office machines simply because they are in many way's easier to run... They also do not give you all of the options. If however you could do a shorter term lease or budget to add something later then you might get your best results... Like many before me if time and money are not an issue, look at the new canons and xerox 5000/7000 with the very best rip you can get and all of the options. You may also want to look at variable data software. ....If you don't get to purchase the dream, why not buy something smaller, shorten your commitment to it and run it into the ground. It still sounds like the 6500 from a price/ function standpoint is a good fit, but without knowing more it would be possible that a Xerox 252 for a shorter term would also work. Just depends how much you can spend... If you have the the money, get the best like Bob said!

 

[UberTech]

6501 is perfect for you missy.

 

[ambperera]

Just so you know, the Xerox 252 is production not office color. True 2400x2400 dpi says everything.... And there´s a more affordable version to the 252... the DC242.

Impressive machines!

 

[PineyBob]

Just so you know, the Xerox 252 is production not office color. True 2400x2400 dpi says everything.... And there´s a more affordable version to the 252... the DC242.

Impressive machines!

2400 x 2400 DPI doesn't make it a production machine anymore then me standing in a garage makes me a car.

Xerox, Canon and K-M all handle DPI and images differently using a variety of technologies including stochastic screening, multi-bit and dithering schemes.

The bottom line is:

Will it handle the stocks I run reliably
Will my customers pay for the quality the machine delivers.

Your customers want great color at a great price and frankly how many understand 8 bit color versus multi-bit or single bit color just so long a their boss likes the output

 

[UberTech]

Pineys right, 2400 really doesn't mean anything.

It's what comes out, even then is it really how the machine prints or how it is printed to?

I have customers that are all over colour management and you would swear there prints are off a press. Others just chuck files at the machine and hope for the best. Given a sample of each and you would be forgiven for thinking they are off completely different machines.

I would say that 252 is office machine judging by the registration comments found on this forum. I would be weary of anyone that says that these engines are true 2400dpi as this would require processing not currently available to rip the file.

The 2400 is interpolated. Xerox (or a third party) has designed a method of cramming more laser diodes on one die. It is no more higher resolution than be writing with 4 pencils at the same time.

 

[GregNac19]

Pineys right, 2400 really doesn't mean anything.

It's what comes out, even then is it really how the machine prints or how it is printed to?

I have customers that are all over colour management and you would swear there prints are off a press. Others just chuck files at the machine and hope for the best. Given a sample of each and you would be forgiven for thinking they are off completely different machines.

I would say that 252 is office machine judging by the registration comments found on this forum. I would be weary of anyone that says that these engines are true 2400dpi as this would require processing not currently available to rip the file.

The 2400 is interpolated. Xerox (or a third party) has designed a method of cramming more laser diodes on one die. It is no more higher resolution than be writing with 4 pencils at the same time.

Have you put samples side by side at 2400X2400 DPi versus any other product not running high resolution? You will see the difference! And your customers will too!
As far as the color management goes, you have Creo, Fiery, and Splash controllers to choose from. You can get whatever color you what.
I do believe it is idiotic to think a machine's registration decides whether it is a production or office machine. There are ways and small additions a service person can put on the machine to tighten up registration.

 

[UberTech]

Have you put samples side by side at 2400X2400 DPi versus any other product not running high resolution? You will see the difference! And your customers will too!
As far as the color management goes, you have Creo, Fiery, and Splash controllers to choose from. You can get whatever color you what.
I do believe it is idiotic to think a machine's registration decides whether it is a production or office machine. There are ways and small additions a service person can put on the machine to tighten up registration.

Yes I have. Print from either at the default calibration on regular paper and yes, the xerox has a better print, no argument. I don't think people who buy these machine intend on printing one sheet a day. It would be foolish to rock up to a demo and buy a machine because one A4 looks better that the other don't you think?

You have to look at finishing, support, reliability. Im not into member measuring here so all I suggest is this user looks at the bigger picture than what the first sheet of paper looks like.

As far as colour managment goes, let me use this in allergy - putting mag wheels on your car doesn't make you a better driver.

Registration means everything to our offset people, perhaps you don't sell to this demographic?

 

[smatros]

Just so you know, the Xerox 252 is production not office color. True 2400x2400 dpi says everything.... And there´s a more affordable version to the 252... the DC242.

Impressive machines!

The DC 2xx series may be quoted as production copiers, but are not among digital presses. We've had one, trust me I know what I am talking about. See also Xerox classification of digital presses: Digital Color Printing with Digital Printing Press Models by Xerox

For what it concerns 2400x2400 at 1 bit... I am still unsure if 600x600 at 8 bit isn't better. Also why the new iGen4 has 600x600 if 2400 is so much better? in the end both prints are ok, just wondering ...

 

[vwrome]

C900

C900

I would look into the new RICOH Pro C900. There are numerous finishing offerings and seems like a real workhorse.

 

[X33]

The 2400 is interpolated. Xerox (or a third party) has designed a method of cramming more laser diodes on one die. It is no more higher resolution than be writing with 4 pencils at the same time.

wrong, it's not interpolated. Xerox' 2400x2400 dpi is actually produced with 32 laser beams, compared to only 2 in other print engines. It's not a software trick, it actually produce 2400dpi.

the technology is called VCSEL, I'm sure you can Google it.

 

[UberTech]

I wasn't saying that the machine wasn't capable of 2400dpi. I was saying the rip was not capable of producing a 2400dpi file so the engine interpolated the missing data. If you read my post it explained difference between xerox (and toshiba) and other dual/single beam engines. No need to google.

 

[PineyBob]

I want to thank UberTech, X33 for proving my point along with GregNac19.

Who the heck cares what the DPI is or how the page is built if your customer/end user thinks it looks like a Rembrandt?

The OP wanted help deciding on a machine, NOT a lesson in the engineering fine points of digital printing and Dots Per Inch.

Two basic questions she needs to ask are:

Will my customers accept the output quality of this equipment?

Can I afford the equipment?

Until those two questions are answered nothing else really matters now does it?

 

[Craig]

I want to thank UberTech, X33 for proving my point along with GregNac19.

Who the heck cares what the DPI is or how the page is built if your customer/end user thinks it looks like a Rembrandt?

The OP wanted help deciding on a machine, NOT a lesson in the engineering fine points of digital printing and Dots Per Inch.

Two basic questions she needs to ask are:

Will my customers accept the output quality of this equipment?

Can I afford the equipment?

Until those two questions are answered nothing else really matters now does it?

Exactly! In the end that is all that matters to the owner, DPI is just a sales talk point.