Xerox 550 vs Versant 180....Post installation regret.

[PricelineNegotiator]

Contemplating getting on a plane just to see what the hell this guy is talking about.

 

[AP90]

Contemplating getting on a plane just to see what the hell this guy is talking about.

Id strongly consider it if the UK allowed us Americans in right now lol. I feel like if he posted the file here I could have it done in 10 minutes and done perfectly.

 

[Ynot_UK]

@PrintingInLincs please do post one of your PDFs (low res - I think you can attach up to 2MB here)... there's lots of us here who've spent a long time trying to help you remotely, but it feels like we're going around in circles. I'm sure by downloading and looking at your PDF, the cause of your issues will become immediately apparent.

 

[PrintingInLincs]

I do understand that a large format would have been better to a degree...but it was about space, fumes & also partly how steep a learning curve it would have been to switch from a 550 to a large inkjet.

After having purchased a lot of posters from large format suppliers & usually finding (genuine) issues with them, I decided it was too big a leap. Many of the issues I found made me believe that they were hard work to maintain & clean.

I didn't visit anywhere to test the machine out no, but this was arranged during a pandemic so that's a factor & everyone I asked told me that I would be able to print everything in 1 go & not have to worry about margins.

It looks like the only option is to print at 100% & cut down...which I never had to do on the 550 even when using scale to fit so this means that for me going from the 550 that it was a pointless upgrade.

Luckily I only have this machine for 3 years & it will have to do.

I haven't seen the tech yet, I'm waiting for a date on that. I fully expect to be told it's within tolerance.

As for large format, I'm phasing out the A2/A1 until I'm printing them myself.

Cheers

 

[PrintingInLincs]

Here's 1

 

[PrintingInLincs]

There are some issues with the margin cutting the text off on the 1st file....(which I never had on the 550 using scale to fit.)

The "starring" in the bottom credits is closer to the edge than on the other side in my experience.

I have since tried to alter the credits to make this less of an issue with the "text-moved" pdf

 

[AP90]

Here's 1

Here you go. Printed and hand cut on a cheap guillotine in maybe 5 minutes. I didn't do an A3 sheet just because set up would have been a nightmare. But, this can be done and time saving. And honestly, my hydraulic cutter would be more accurate than my hand cutting, and this is pretty spot on.

 

[namelessentity]

Don't use tray alignment. Use crop marks and a cutter. Your machine isn't out of alignment, you just don't know how to use it.

 

[Ynot_UK]

I printed the attached on SRA3 (for ease of setup) and quickly trimmed it with a 15 year old £50 Dahle rotary trimmer, it took about 5 minutes all in.
I'm not the most accurate at hand cutting and would normally use the Ideal 4850-95EP which would be perfect to within .1 of an mm.

 

[PrintingInLincs]

I really think you'll save time and money by printing on a larger sheet and cutting down to the exact margins that you are wanting. A nice rotary trimmer would work well and you could hit your crop marks every time and have an exact margin. Spend a couple hundred bucks on this and see if it solves your problems. Ive spent way more to not solve any headaches before lol.

Dahle Model 552 Professional Rolling Trimmer - 20 1/8 Inch

Dahle?s professional series of rolling trimmers are designed for heavy duty applications where precision is essential. These trimmers are equipped with a ground self-sharpening blade that cuts in either direction.

www.mybinding.com

Also, are you making sure your paper is "square" and the exact correct size from the packaging? It wouldn't be hard for the paper to be off .1-.2mm and therefore causing the machine to place the paper on areas of the machine.

Just bought a 556 which comes Friday....I thought this was more future-proof than the smaller model & wasn't much more costly. Cheers

 

[Ynot_UK]

Just bought a 556 which comes Friday....I thought this was more future-proof than the smaller model & wasn't much more costly. Cheers

That should pay for itself in a few weeks, by eliminating the heavy wastage you currently have combined with the ability to print your A4 posters 2-up on SRA3 and then trim. (assuming a click is a click, irrespective of size, which is usual on production machines).

 

[PrintingInLincs]

Don't get me wrong...I know printing 100% on SRA3 & cutting down will give me the most control now...but I was getting a 3mm margin on 1 in 4 prints with the 550 using scale to fit but scale to fit on the V180 works differently it seems.

@Ynot_UK margin looks great & I appreciate your help.

The attached was printed scale to fit on the 550 though in 4 attempts on A4...so considering I've spent a LOT of money I would have expected I could get a 3mm border like the 550 could on the v180.

 

[PrintingInLincs]

That should pay for itself in a few weeks, by eliminating the heavy wastage you currently have combined with the ability to print your A4 posters 2-up on SRA3 and then trim. (assuming a click is a click, irrespective of size, which is usual on production machines).

Yeah up to SRA3 = 1 click.

 

[pippip]

So, back in the office so had to test this and feck it to all my real orders. Versant80 here.

Don't have Mondi so used 200gsm ProDesign SRA3, as far as I know near identical.

Cut to A4 myself and placed in tray 2 LEF. Set to uncoated 177gsm-220gsm. Ran SIQA to set alignment before starting.

Printed at 100% from pdf to see what margins my machine cannot print from standard. 2mm top and bottom, left 4mm & right 2.5mm. (Note I know Tray 5 has bigger margins it cannot print) According to this a tech may be able to adjust these standard margins.

Next I reduced the print to 96% in the rip. This gives me a margin of exactly 4mm on both sides, with 6mm top and bottom, perfectly straight (obviously 6mm v 4mm because 96% of 297 is more than 96% of 210mm, so to achieve even all round would require layout in indesign etc or possibly acrobat script.

Now I've ran another 5 sheets and all are bang on and I mean bang on, no movement, and I'm a picky f$%ker when it comes to precision.

So basically I had two sheets waste, one for alignment and another to test 100%. And my first actual print was bang on what it should be.

Realistically I feel this is zero help to you but it just proves the machine should be able to do exactly what you're asking, even better than your 550 did as I managed in it on first sheet, all be it limited to 4mm margin!

 

[PrintingInLincs]

Bought some SRA3 as thinking I'll have to cut down now. Shame I'd just restocked on A3 as I have loads now.

There does seem to be something different about how the 550 & 180 treat scale to fit but oh well.

Kind of forgetting that I could have done all of this on the 550. I really don't see what the point in upgrading was. No benefits to the purchase at all & my experience is that it doesn't match the 550 in either alignment or quality of the image.

I know that's a very unpopular opinion.

Cheers

 

[AP90]

Bought some SRA3 as thinking I'll have to cut down now. Shame I'd just restocked on A3 as I have loads now.

There does seem to be something different about how the 550 & 180 treat scale to fit but oh well.

Kind of forgetting that I could have done all of this on the 550. I really don't see what the point in upgrading was. No benefits to the purchase at all & my experience is that it doesn't match the 550 in either alignment or quality of the image.

I know that's a very unpopular opinion.

Cheers

I think your experience is the only one that feels that the 550 would be superior quality than the 180. And most likely the alignment issue as well. As @pippip showed with his Versant 80, it will hold perfect registration for an A4 sheet and had perfect margins. There has to be something that you are doing that is causing this issue for you. Do you set the files with 3mm margins in indesign first and then print? Is the versant 180 capable of printing just 3mm from the edges of the paper? Digital machines can't print to the edge, so is it maybe that the 550 had a 3mm white border that it couldn't print and that the versant is different? I know our lead and trail edges always have a larger border than the sides due to the abilities of the machine. Let this be a lesson to anyone looking to buy a new machine in the future. Get a demo of it first. All of us who have production machines went and got demo's on our stocks with our files and kept them to make sure the machine stayed within spec.

Also, this is also a testament to service techs. Our Xerox techs where I am at are amazing. They are always on top of things and go the extra mile for us to keep us running and keep us running with quality work. They've came in to replace a part and after it starts running again will pull a sheet and be like "oh, there's a small blemish. let me dig in and figure this out for you" while I never would have even noticed and neither would the customer. I honestly cant say enough good things about them.

 

[Ynot_UK]

Get a demo of it first. All of us who have production machines went and got demo's on our stocks with our files and kept them to make sure the machine stayed within spec.

^^^ This. Even in Covid times. Everything else is just noise and hearsay.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

I think this is a misconception as to how machine engineering works. Your 550 had exact margins because the machine did not have the engineering and consistency to print close enough to the edge, hence an "enforced" margin on all sides (or edge deletion in the CED), which happened to be the same. Since the V180 is a better machine, and engineered to print closer to the edge, the management team at Xerox decided to allow the machine to print as close to the edges of the sheet, in each direction, as it could. While these margins are not the same on every side, they still afford the user to print more area on a given sheet. This is a benefit, not a drawback, but with some clever file management, DFE workflows or possibly talking to a technician or their superior, you could figure out a way to force equal margins. This machine WILL register better than your 550.

 

[bcr]

I'm struggling a bit with reconciling your various comments and posts on here as some of it seems quite contradictory.

You seem to be suggesting that the Versant is no better than the 550 and there was no point upgrading. But you said earlier:

Still not got my Versant 180 due to all of the UK lockdowns. The 550 eats so much paper...I can print for 3 hours to get 10 posters aligned enough to send out. I'd suggest not getting a 550 to anyone. Having to have the Versant installed through a living room window when it does come.

So clearly you couldn't just go back to the 550 - that wasn't doing what you needed it to do.

You've also said about the cost of the Versant being a waste, but you again said that you're paying less for it than you paid for the 550.

Quite honestly, it seems like you've managed the hard part which is to find a niche which you can work in order to get business. However, it really seems like you don't know what you are doing when it comes to basic production printing workflow.

My suggestion to you would be to absorb as much input from the professional printers on here, and figure out (getting paid training if necessary), what the most effective workflow is for your product.

You need to basically forget about how you were doing things on the 550 and start from scratch with the correct way of doing things on your new production machine.

As several people on here have shown today, they can print out and trim down the documents you showed to a high level of accuracy in no time at all, and if they're doing longer runs the registration is probably fine too: when you are complaining about registration it actually sounds like more of an issue with processing the documents in an inconsistent way, rather than the machine holding the registration over repeated prints.

So take a few steps back. Listen to the advice, get training (perhaps from Xerox or your supplier, or even someone off here will probably do a day's paid consultancy for you) and redesign your process from scratch.

You're making this all way too difficult.

Re quality, this is another area where you probably need training to dial the settings in right on your machine. The Versant is capable of higher quality and more importantly with a much greater level of consistency than your old machine.

I say this as someone who has set up an in-house repro recently. I admit with most of the stuff I haven't got a clue what I'm doing, but I recognise my own limits and wouldn't make blanket statements that the equipment is no good when I'm using it the wrong way. I know enough to do what I got the equipment to do; and there are potentially loads of other things I want to expand into but I need to learn and get training to be able to figure it out. None of that is a bad thing, but please just listen to the advice people are giving you, forget about your workflow on the 550, which clearly did not work and was a bodge job, and start from scratch. What you are trying to do is not complicated if you go about it in the right way

 

[bcr]

P.s. never ever buy a machine blind. Always do your own tests and stress tests using your own files and specialist papers.

Before choosing our current machines I did a demo at Konica, an extensive demo on several machines at canon, same at Xerox, and finally, three demos at Ricoh - we only had three demos because on the second one where we were hoping to sign it turned out that the machine they suggested to us could not do one of the main things we asked for (printing and punching A5 tabs). Good that we found that out!! Follow up visit on other machines I did extensive testing using my own tab stock and files and I videod the output from the machines to compare afterwards - a key issue was avoiding slowdown between tab insertions.

Never take the word of a printer salesman or company for granted. Test everything yourself and get everything spelled out in writing.