Xerox 550 vs Versant 180....Post installation regret.

[PricelineNegotiator]

If you pay me I will fly to you and show you how to use the machine VERY well.

 

[PrintingInLincs]

I'm struggling a bit with reconciling your various comments and posts on here as some of it seems quite contradictory.

You seem to be suggesting that the Versant is no better than the 550 and there was no point upgrading. But you said earlier:



So clearly you couldn't just go back to the 550 - that wasn't doing what you needed it to do.

You've also said about the cost of the Versant being a waste, but you again said that you're paying less for it than you paid for the 550.

Quite honestly, it seems like you've managed the hard part which is to find a niche which you can work in order to get business. However, it really seems like you don't know what you are doing when it comes to basic production printing workflow.

My suggestion to you would be to absorb as much input from the professional printers on here, and figure out (getting paid training if necessary), what the most effective workflow is for your product.

You need to basically forget about how you were doing things on the 550 and start from scratch with the correct way of doing things on your new production machine.

As several people on here have shown today, they can print out and trim down the documents you showed to a high level of accuracy in no time at all, and if they're doing longer runs the registration is probably fine too: when you are complaining about registration it actually sounds like more of an issue with processing the documents in an inconsistent way, rather than the machine holding the registration over repeated prints.

So take a few steps back. Listen to the advice, get training (perhaps from Xerox or your supplier, or even someone off here will probably do a day's paid consultancy for you) and redesign your process from scratch.

You're making this all way too difficult.

Re quality, this is another area where you probably need training to dial the settings in right on your machine. The Versant is capable of higher quality and more importantly with a much greater level of consistency than your old machine.

I say this as someone who has set up an in-house repro recently. I admit with most of the stuff I haven't got a clue what I'm doing, but I recognise my own limits and wouldn't make blanket statements that the equipment is no good when I'm using it the wrong way. I know enough to do what I got the equipment to do; and there are potentially loads of other things I want to expand into but I need to learn and get training to be able to figure it out. None of that is a bad thing, but please just listen to the advice people are giving you, forget about your workflow on the 550, which clearly did not work and was a bodge job, and start from scratch. What you are trying to do is not complicated if you go about it in the right way

What I mean is...I could print at 100% & chop down on the 550 if I'd of wanted. I always used the scale to fit method & printed on A3 if I needed an A3 poster etc.

I could go a few hours on the 550 & get 10 posters with that method...I can go the same time on the V180 & get nothing with an even margin using the scale to fit method using SIQA & then tweaking the manual alignment.

I'm paying half the cost per click that I was on the 550...but it seemingly can't do the same method I used on the 550 as it just uses tons of paper for nothing except frustration.

I got the Dahle chopper...& that seems like a whole new can of worms to me. There is a lot to learn & I accept that.

I'm going to get an analyst out for the machine & maybe there are some settings to work on.

If not I'll have to get used to chopping down, but it's an extra step I never had to do before.

I felt I knew much more about what I was doing on the 550 so understand about knowing your limits.

I appreciate everyone's input...and the ability to vent my frustrations to an extent.

 

[Ynot_UK]

I could go a few hours on the 550 & get 10 posters with that method...I can go the same time on the V180 & get nothing with an even margin...

This reads as though you were happy with those 10 posters in 3 hours from the 550 ! You must have been recycling reams of paper every day and paying for thousands of clicks you never resold.

For years, on our old KM C454e (not a production machine) we would print over 500 or so pages per hour onto 250GSM silk.
Sure, the registration wasn't the best, the rollers on the input side needed regular cleaning between jobs, refilling the bypass tray every 40 or so sheets was frustrating, as were the occasional pickup jams. Very little wastage though, in fairness.
But - and this is the important bit - going from a 550 to a V180 should have been a similar experience for you as going from that C454e to the C4080 was for us.

I got the Dahle chopper...& that seems like a whole new can of worms to me.

With your new rotary trimmer, make sure you're printing crops on the oversized sheet, work clockwise rather than opposite sides so you don't end up cutting your top & bottom crops off early and use the screen printed rulers for your last (long edge) cut.

 

[AP90]

What I mean is...I could print at 100% & chop down on the 550 if I'd of wanted. I always used the scale to fit method & printed on A3 if I needed an A3 poster etc.

I could go a few hours on the 550 & get 10 posters with that method...I can go the same time on the V180 & get nothing with an even margin using the scale to fit method using SIQA & then tweaking the manual alignment.

I'm paying half the cost per click that I was on the 550...but it seemingly can't do the same method I used on the 550 as it just uses tons of paper for nothing except frustration.

I got the Dahle chopper...& that seems like a whole new can of worms to me. There is a lot to learn & I accept that.

I'm going to get an analyst out for the machine & maybe there are some settings to work on.

If not I'll have to get used to chopping down, but it's an extra step I never had to do before.

I felt I knew much more about what I was doing on the 550 so understand about knowing your limits.

I appreciate everyone's input...and the ability to vent my frustrations to an extent.

I think the biggest thing to take away from this is that your process isn’t how anyone else does things. So your doing it “wrong” based on industry standards. You were able to get away with it because the 550 just deleted everything 3mm from the edge. So your image might not have actually been registered correctly. It just looked like it because the 550 couldn’t print any further to the edge. The 180 has different tolerances. That’s why your old process isn’t working now.
You obviously seem like your able to run a business and be successful and find your niche. I think you’d be surprised if you went back to the beginning and started your processes over. If your do a correct layout of the image in indesign or similar software and then print and cut like we all do then you will find the process goes smoothly and effortlessly. It might be 1 more step than your used to, but I guarantee, beyond a shadow of a doubt, it would save you time and money.

 

[PrintingInLincs]

OK, so I've had an analyst here to look at the machine...as expected it is user error (me)

They did change it from photographic to presentation mode though which sorted the colour issues I was having & he said he'd had the same issue recently elsewhere.

Cutting down from larger sheets is the way forward but I always saw this as an unnecessary step & aimed at people cutting down to save on costs rather than getting a certain margin etc.

There are very few guides about "industry standards" & cutting down from people actually within the printing industry so it's understandable that my workflow was a little different to the norms.

I have already had success with the new trimmer rather than using the guillotine so I guess that's a factor too.

I appreciate everyone's suggestions & ideas.

 

[PrintingInLincs]

After a few weeks of using the V180 whilst cutting down from larger sizes & 100% Scaling. Here is my opinion:

1. The V180 is no better than the 550 if you are not reliant on front-to-back registration.
2. There is no noticeable difference in print quality. In many cases, I have had to use photoshop to eradicate issues that didn't show on the 550. You might say it's more honest, but not useful for me.
3. I have had to rework all of the artwork we used in photoshop because the V180 colours are darker than the 550.
4. I'm having to cut down now & it happens to be the case that my rotary trimer is not square (just my luck!),if you put the paper next to the guide & cut, it will be closer to 1 crop mark than the other.
5. Print that is cut down can get a frayed edge which then gets thrown away.
6. Printing edge to edge is much harder to handle, now requiring gloves etc.
7. The V180 wastes as much paper as the 550 did, whether it's a pixel out on a black print (time & time again) or some other issue it's like final destination...something will always happen to use the paper up.

Due to all of the above, I am barely managing a few orders a day when I was handling 30-40 at peak on the 550 & the V180 is only really any use for a small run, leaflet/flyer printing operation IMO & I totally regret not getting an inkjet.

 

[Ynot_UK]

1. The V180 is no better than the 550 if you are not reliant on front-to-back registration.

As a modern digital production press, there will be 101 things the V180 does better than a large office MFP. It's just you are not making use of those benefits, because you only print a handful of posters.
Take a simple example that we do all the time - a run of 200-500 posters with heavy solids, onto 250GSM coated stock. Our production press does that perfectly in a few minutes. Sheet #500 exactly the same as Sheet #1, delivered cool and perfectly flat, no jams. The same job on the MFP would be a fight. It would get there an hour or so later, with poor registration and misfeeds from the bypass tray, some nasty jams in the fuser to burn fingers on, and the output on the delivery tray would be curled and too hot to touch.

2. There is no noticeable difference in print quality. In many cases, I have had to use photoshop to eradicate issues that didn't show on the 550. You might say it's more honest, but not useful for me.
3. I have had to rework all of the artwork we used in photoshop because the V180 colours are darker than the 550.

Sorry, but you're contradicting yourself. It seems from what you've said there is very much a noticeable difference in quality. Put simply, your V180 is calibrated and accurate, whereas the 550 isn't. This is no different to our KM C4080 vs C454. For the work we do, we noticed it in background colours. The V180 output will of course be less forgiving, as it is more faithful to the artwork.

4. I'm having to cut down now & it happens to be the case that my rotary trimer is not square (just my luck!),if you put the paper next to the guide & cut, it will be closer to 1 crop mark than the other.

The plastic guide on those things is just that - a "guide". There is play in them, so you won't get an identical result every time, also it depends how you line it up on the grid. Use the crop marks in conjunction with your own two far more accurate guides (either side of your nose) and the job should be a goodun!

5. Print that is cut down can get a frayed edge which then gets thrown away.

I expect this is only happening after you go at a sheet with the trimmer two or three times, trying to shave half an mm off an existing cut. Line up to your crop marks as above and this problem will go away.

7. The V180 wastes as much paper as the 550 did, whether it's a pixel out on a black print (time & time again) or some other issue it's like final destination...something will always happen to use the paper up.

This is 100% operator or environment error. You should be having virtually no wastage with a modern digital press. None of the rest of us on here are chucking masses of freshly printed work into recycling (apart from when a customer changes their mind).
You urgently need to find a friendly local digital shop and spend a week in there helping out for free, looking and learning everything they do.

the V180 is only really any use for a small run, leaflet/flyer printing operation IMO

You really must revoke this statement as it is just so wrong, on all levels.
Like me saying "The Gibson Les Paul is a totally shit guitar as I bought one and can't get a decent tune out of it"
Notwithstanding, I've never played guitar!

I totally regret not getting an inkjet.

This is the best thing you've said in your entire post.
A half decent inkjet is the right tool for what you are doing (printing posters to put in frames and hang on the wall)
The difference in colour and vibrancy would be remarkable.
As I've eluded to before, the inkjet would also enable you to produce the more profitable A2 and A1 size posters you used to sell, which were showing as 'out of stock' on your Etsy shop last time I looked.

 

[pippip]

Yeh, unfortunately you purchased the wrong machine for the job. I'd cut your loses and sell it asap. I presume since it's a 180 and not the 280 you bought it second hand? If so you should be able to sell it on with less loss than if you'd bought new.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

After a few weeks of using the V180 whilst cutting down from larger sizes & 100% Scaling. Here is my opinion:

1. The V180 is no better than the 550 if you are not reliant on front-to-back registration.
2. There is no noticeable difference in print quality. In many cases, I have had to use photoshop to eradicate issues that didn't show on the 550. You might say it's more honest, but not useful for me.
3. I have had to rework all of the artwork we used in photoshop because the V180 colours are darker than the 550.
4. I'm having to cut down now & it happens to be the case that my rotary trimer is not square (just my luck!),if you put the paper next to the guide & cut, it will be closer to 1 crop mark than the other.
5. Print that is cut down can get a frayed edge which then gets thrown away.
6. Printing edge to edge is much harder to handle, now requiring gloves etc.
7. The V180 wastes as much paper as the 550 did, whether it's a pixel out on a black print (time & time again) or some other issue it's like final destination...something will always happen to use the paper up.

Due to all of the above, I am barely managing a few orders a day when I was handling 30-40 at peak on the 550 & the V180 is only really any use for a small run, leaflet/flyer printing operation IMO & I totally regret not getting an inkjet.

I have PM'ed you multiple times asking for you to show me your operation so that I can help you facilitate achieving more orders. I am starting to feel that you enjoy banging your head against the wall, and are not interested in hearing from an individual that knows what they are talking about.

You are only interested in coming on this forum and complaining.

Prove me wrong.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

As a modern digital production press, there will be 101 things the V180 does better than a large office MFP. It's just you are not making use of those benefits, because you only print a handful of posters.
Take a simple example that we do all the time - a run of 200-500 posters with heavy solids, onto 250GSM coated stock. Our production press does that perfectly in a few minutes. Sheet #500 exactly the same as Sheet #1, delivered cool and perfectly flat, no jams. The same job on the MFP would be a fight. It would get there an hour or so later, with poor registration and misfeeds from the bypass tray, some nasty jams in the fuser to burn fingers on, and the output on the delivery tray would be curled and too hot to touch.

Sorry, but you're contradicting yourself. It seems from what you've said there is very much a noticeable difference in quality. Put simply, your V180 is calibrated and accurate, whereas the 550 isn't. This is no different to our KM C4080 vs C454. For the work we do, we noticed it in background colours. The V180 output will of course be less forgiving, as it is more faithful to the artwork.

The plastic guide on those things is just that - a "guide". There is play in them, so you won't get an identical result every time, also it depends how you line it up on the grid. Use the crop marks in conjunction with your own two far more accurate guides (either side of your nose) and the job should be a goodun!

I expect this is only happening after you go at a sheet with the trimmer two or three times, trying to shave half an mm off an existing cut. Line up to your crop marks as above and this problem will go away.

This is 100% operator or environment error. You should be having virtually no wastage with a modern digital press. None of the rest of us on here are chucking masses of freshly printed work into recycling (apart from when a customer changes their mind).
You urgently need to find a friendly local digital shop and spend a week in there helping out for free, looking and learning everything they do.

You really must revoke this statement as it is just so wrong, on all levels.
Like me saying "The Gibson Les Paul is a totally shit guitar as I bought one and can't get a decent tune out of it"
Notwithstanding, I've never played guitar!

This is the best thing you've said in your entire post.
A half decent inkjet is the right tool for what you are doing (printing posters to put in frames and hang on the wall)
The difference in colour and vibrancy would be remarkable.
As I've eluded to before, the inkjet would also enable you to produce the more profitable A2 and A1 size posters you used to sell, which were showing as 'out of stock' on your Etsy shop last time I looked.

I get frustrated just reading his posts. It is sad to see someone have a beautiful machine but not be able to use it to achieve their goals. I know for a fact that he can have an incredibly efficient operation as I did some homework on his Etsy business and the items that are listed there are, in my opinion, something I could print thousands of in a single morning without breaking a sweat, as I have done that very thing on our V180P.

 

[bcr]

1. The V180 is no better than the 550 if you are not reliant on front-to-back registration.
2. There is no noticeable difference in print quality. In many cases, I have had to use photoshop to eradicate issues that didn't show on the 550. You might say it's more honest, but not useful for me.
3. I have had to rework all of the artwork we used in photoshop because the V180 colours are darker than the 550.
4. I'm having to cut down now & it happens to be the case that my rotary trimer is not square (just my luck!),if you put the paper next to the guide & cut, it will be closer to 1 crop mark than the other.
5. Print that is cut down can get a frayed edge which then gets thrown away.
6. Printing edge to edge is much harder to handle, now requiring gloves etc.
7. The V180 wastes as much paper as the 550 did, whether it's a pixel out on a black print (time & time again) or some other issue it's like final destination...something will always happen to use the paper up.

Due to all of the above, I am barely managing a few orders a day when I was handling 30-40 at peak on the 550 & the V180 is only really any use for a small run, leaflet/flyer printing operation IMO & I totally regret not getting an inkjet.

it's getting quite tiresome reading these posts now.

it's not the press - it's you.

there's loads of people on here with extensive experience pointing out that you are doing things wrong and then you persist in slating the machine as being at fault. it isn't, and your criticisms of the machine, which, apparently isn't the right tool for your application, and which you don't know how to use properly, aren't fair.

there's an opportunity here for you to listen to people's advice and learn how to do things properly; but if you keep ignoring what people tell you and continue to slate the machinery unfairly, their patience will run out.

 

[bcr]

it really can't be that difficult to get the machine and your files dialled in so that it can churn out thousands of copies of a poster each day with minimal adjustments being required from your end. Or once you've figured out a particular file, print a batch out to keep as stock and then archive the settings.

but sounds like you need to get your files prepped and colour management figured out to do that.
have you had any training in colour management?

it's something I know next to nothing about - as my printing is for an office market, rather than marketing or graphic design - but i am aware of how little i know about it and wouldn't dream of slating the colour capabilities of my equipment from the position of such a lack of knowledge.

 

[pippip]

When we went from a DC242 to the Versant 80 I was the same about the colour difference. Jobs I'd previously run didn't look the same but I realised it was the fact that the Versant is so accurate. On the DC242 screens below 6% just didn't show, when adjusting colours you'd have to move a few % before seeing any change. On the Versant you can get down to 1% screens and every % makes a difference when adjusting.

If you're only running single posters now and then I'd bet it's a dust issue you're having causing random spots.

 

[Ynot_UK]

If you're only running single posters now and then I'd bet it's a dust issue you're having causing random spots.

I was thinking about this last night and came to the same conclusion as you.... dust on the input side
This is the same guy who on another topic, said:

I have a V180 in my living room.

and

... has to be installed/removed via a window...

IIRC, he also said somewhere that he had the "most basic configuration" which is an engine with trays 1&2 underneath, a bypass tray and a catch tray. Maybe wrong, but I'm visualising exposed substrate on a permanently loaded bypass tray in a carpeted living room, with kids, pets, dust... and then wondering why there's spots on the posters...

 

[tngcas]

I certainly understand the frustration of thinking a machine is going to be the answer to all your problems, pinning your hopes and dreams on that for months and months and then finally getting the machine and discovering that it has it's own set of problems.

It's the age-old "grass is greener" problem mixed with a prior printing process that commercial printing equipment simply isn't designed for. Namely that as soon as you speed things up so you can do volume jobs you stop getting all the benefits that come with slow printers (more precise margins/margin deletion) etc.

I don't know that this particular problem is solvable with this equipment/user/use mix and that's where the frustration is coming in.

 

[PrintingInLincs]

My opinion after a few months more use of the v180 machine....& chopping everything down.

Pro's:

1. Hardly ever any issues with dust, the extraction is much more powerful.
2. I can now print 10 posters in a minute & they'll all be ok to send.
3. It does print in the same position. every time.
4. It has freed up a lot of time for me & I now can do other stuff which was the main goal.
5. I can usually print & cut down 10 posters while only using 13 sheets. I was printing on average 4 posters to get 1 good one using the old "scale to fit" method & being concerned about 3mm margin.
6. I have had to learn to cut down but this is industry standard so it's a pro I guess.
7. Seems very sturdy.

Cons:

1. I had to rework all of the files I use, the colours came out different the v180 shows flaws that you just could not see on the 550. Much of the frustration came from this.
2. Far noisier than a 550 though this isn't an issue to me as it's not on all the time.
3. Probably not the right tool for the job for my uses & I haven't found anything extra to do with it yet due to the time involved in 1.)

I appreciate peoples previous thoughts on my thread during the dark days when I thought I'd made a HUGE mistake.

 

[PrintingInLincs]

I was thinking about this last night and came to the same conclusion as you.... dust on the input side
This is the same guy who on another topic, said:

and

IIRC, he also said somewhere that he had the "most basic configuration" which is an engine with trays 1&2 underneath, a bypass tray and a catch tray. Maybe wrong, but I'm visualising exposed substrate on a permanently loaded bypass tray in a carpeted living room, with kids, pets, dust... and then wondering why there's spots on the posters...

I no longer really have the dust issue. Yes, carpeted room but the room is off-limits unless the printer is on. I ran an air purifier 24/7 at one point & maybe that helped but I'm really not seeing the dust /spec issue anymore. I do agree this was probably part of the issue with the 550 as it was in a different room. I've totally changed my opinion on the V180.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

My opinion after a few months more use of the v180 machine....& chopping everything down.

Pro's:

1. Hardly ever any issues with dust, the extraction is much more powerful.
2. I can now print 10 posters in a minute & they'll all be ok to send.
3. It does print in the same position. every time.
4. It has freed up a lot of time for me & I now can do other stuff which was the main goal.
5. I can usually print & cut down 10 posters while only using 13 sheets. I was printing on average 4 posters to get 1 good one using the old "scale to fit" method & being concerned about 3mm margin.
6. I have had to learn to cut down but this is industry standard so it's a pro I guess.
7. Seems very sturdy.

Cons:

1. I had to rework all of the files I use, the colours came out different the v180 shows flaws that you just could not see on the 550. Much of the frustration came from this.
2. Far noisier than a 550 though this isn't an issue to me as it's not on all the time.
3. Probably not the right tool for the job for my uses & I haven't found anything extra to do with it yet due to the time involved in 1.)

I appreciate peoples previous thoughts on my thread during the dark days when I thought I'd made a HUGE mistake.

2. Install some of that foam on the wall that streamers like to use. That'll help a bit. It's real cheap too.

 

[PrintingInLincs]

After a few days of "printing all day to get about 3 posters done" kind of issues..I've had to go back to doing things the wrong way ie printing on A3 to get an A3 poster with a small border.

The V180 prints, I measure from the edge to the crop marks & it's fine....then I start using the rotary trimmer & it all goes wrong from there. I have tried to adjust it, it's still not square.

Anyway it got so bad I bought 2 x Dahle 444's & 2 x Dahle 554's (after returning the 556 for the same issue)

I almost bought a big ideal power guillotine but pulled back from it. If I can't get it square on a trimmer who says a big guillotine will fix things.

I just can't get them to cut square! I've measured the paper too.

I do not feel I am designed for the print industry & things like this really knock your confidence.

With the "scale to fit" method on a 550, I was handling 20-30 orders a day....now I struggle to cope with 15 a week using the crop marks & trim method.

I don't understand why people prefer borderless anyway, things get cut off when you frame them usually.

Rant over.

 

[namelessentity]

After a few days of "printing all day to get about 3 posters done" kind of issues..I've had to go back to doing things the wrong way ie printing on A3 to get an A3 poster with a small border.

The V180 prints, I measure from the edge to the crop marks & it's fine....then I start using the rotary trimmer & it all goes wrong from there. I have tried to adjust it, it's still not square.

Anyway it got so bad I bought 2 x Dahle 444's & 2 x Dahle 554's (after returning the 556 for the same issue)

I almost bought a big ideal power guillotine but pulled back from it. If I can't get it square on a trimmer who says a big guillotine will fix things.

I just can't get them to cut square! I've measured the paper too.

I do not feel I am designed for the print industry & things like this really knock your confidence.

With the "scale to fit" method on a 550, I was handling 20-30 orders a day....now I struggle to cope with 15 a week using the crop marks & trim method.

I don't understand why people prefer borderless anyway, things get cut off when you frame them usually.

Rant over.

An exacto blade and a ruler could do this job. I am absolutely baffled by your incompetence. I am sorry to be so blunt, but nothing about this is hard. You ignore everyones advice and then blame everything but yourself.