Xerox 700 Digital Color Press

[Frank@be]

Xerox launched the x700 in Europe @ DRUPA.
Has anybody had a demo or installation of this new printer.
I would be happy with some findings or remarks on this machine.
We are going to install a new printer shortly and we are considering between xerox and Konica 6500.

 

[lfelton]

Re: Xerox 700 Digital Color Press

We had Xerox in last week talking about this machine and a few others. The 700 is based on the 242/252/262 print engine, but with improved paper handling and a higher duty cycle. Print speed is up to 70 A4's/min depending on stock thickness. The front to back registration is guaranteed at +-2mm (i.e. 1mm per side), so now falls somewhere between the DC2x2 and DC5000 in those terms. The other thing which people need to be aware of is that this is now the most "heavy duty" Xerox engine that prints without using fuser oil. We are primarily litho printers and the print quality from these machines when coupled with the right RIP is very close to good quality litho, without the "toner shine" that affects other engines. I haven't seen any other machine with a better print quality (including the bigger Xerox). I don't think there are any 700s installed in the UK yet (pricing wasn't sorted out at Drupa apparently), but the UK Beta installation ran about 250K impressions in a couple of months according to Xerox.

You need to get a dem booked in with Xerox, the above is my recollection so not to be taken as gospel.

As for the Konica, we didn't like the print quality, it's quite clearly inferior to any current Xerox engine. I haven't looked at their range in depth recently, but Konica sent some more print samples a couple of days ago and they were not great.

Having said that, a couple of other commercial printers local to us have bought Konica's recently. The capital cost is much cheaper than Xerox and they claim that the paper handling is "litho machine class". That's the achilles heel of the smaller Xerox machines, so I guess there is some mileage in that claim.

Hope that helps.

 

[Radibo]

Re: Xerox 700 Digital Color Press

The printquality on the Konica Bizhub 6500 is good, the Xerox printquality is excellent. The XEROX 700 has more value for your money. With Xerox you will find a bigger / larger knowledgebase in-house then when a problem occures with your Konica. When you dig in more in the quality between the both machines you will see that the XEROX is superior. In one colour full printparts (SRA3) the Xerox is better, also the XEROX-decurleroption is better. Fairly both machines are good, but als keep an eye on the prepress and take some time to test a variety of rips on both machines. When you want to keep your color to be consistent you must go for the XEROX, also the low-melt toners gives you a better imagequality with the same resolution. Konica will mention the term metal constantly, they are really satisfied with the metaltrays. But give a look at the plastic parts, to tiny to handle. The decurler on the Konica is good, but the 700 has a double decurlereoption, one directly after the fusingstation and a completely configurable station directly after the press which has a variety of decurlsettings.

With the Xerox you can setup trays for the paper you wish to use, you can put on a little pressure to the sheet in the tray. Also the sidebar is adjustable to achieve maximum stability for the insertlay / edge. All the parts are easy to change (drum, tonercartridge etc...).

We therefore have chosen for Xerox, again!

Edited by: Radibo on Jul 9, 2008 3:32 PM

 

[smatros]

x700 has plenty of problems, we are runing one for 2 months and the machine is very unreliable.

 

[xxeroid]

Yes Xerox is proud of their decurler and go on and on about it. The reason for this is that the DC5065, DC252, DC260 was so shocking with its curl, that they had to nut something out to fix it. With the Bizhub C6500, curl isn't a problem on it either way. If you want colour consistancy, the Bizhub will walk all over the DC700. Look at the Delta E ratings. If you want to print great solids, the Bizhub wins. If you want to print good black solids on 300gsm board, the Bizhub will do it, where the toner will scratch off on the DC700. Buying the DC700 is the wrong move, but there are still loyal X customers out there.

 

[notech_commonsense]

to smatros: i'm curious which channel you acquired your xerox 700 from?

the print quality on the 700 is outstanding. it is value priced machine for the right applications and volumes

 

[GregNac19]

Yes Xerox is proud of their decurler and go on and on about it. The reason for this is that the DC5065, DC252, DC260 was so shocking with its curl, that they had to nut something out to fix it. With the Bizhub C6500, curl isn't a problem on it either way. If you want colour consistancy, the Bizhub will walk all over the DC700. Look at the Delta E ratings. If you want to print great solids, the Bizhub wins. If you want to print good black solids on 300gsm board, the Bizhub will do it, where the toner will scratch off on the DC700. Buying the DC700 is the wrong move, but there are still loyal X customers out there.

Question: What is the difference between the “old KM 6500 and the New 6501?

Answer: Not very much, it is still a 600 x 600 dpi engine but a few internal changes were made that sound more like retrofits that we would typically do as part of a maintenance contract. Their 600 dpi output will still be grainy against 2400 dpi outputn from the 700.

1. “The 6501 has new writing lens material that has been changed to lower the moisture absorption level, which the company says counters the effects of humidity on the output, and a new smooth drum surface designed to eliminate bonding of “unwanted material” such as dust or toner particles to help it stay cleaner and in turn extend the life of the machine.” - Sounds like they had an issue with dust and drum life….

2. Improved toner yield up to 8.7% better - Not sure how this helps image quality…
3. New smaller booklet maker (20 sheets) - I guess folks thought the size of the 200 page booklet maker was too big – you have a 25 sheet booklet maker…

4. New perfect binder (up to 300 sheets) - Depending on the size of the books, choosing to perfect bind inline will have a major impact on productivity. A “near line” system would be faster.

By the way, what is a 5065? I think that was a Xerox machine form the 80's.
Has anyone not named Konica Minolta seen toner scratch off a Xerox anything?

Here is two great questions for anyone evaluting machines; 1. When I run a job 20% color and 80% B&W, will I get charged for entire job in color or just what I used?
2. Will my machine stop and AUTO CALIBRATE like all the other BIZ Hubs every few minutes or so?

Please reference any delta ratings so people can see what you are talking about and who did the testing.

 

[random]

1. “The 6501 has new writing lens material that has been changed to lower the moisture absorption level, which the company says counters the effects of humidity on the output, and a new smooth drum surface designed to eliminate bonding of “unwanted material” such as dust or toner particles to help it stay cleaner and in turn extend the life of the machine.” - Sounds like they had an issue with dust and drum life….

WRONG - The write units had a problem on yellow line screen that caused the edges of print to fade. This was resolved with a new type of linescreen ina firmware upgrade. This new write unit resolves the problem completely. The DC5000 has the same problem but on all colours and is unresolvable.

2. Improved toner yield up to 8.7% better - Not sure how this helps image quality…

You can change toner on the fly but most customers requested improved yields.

3. New smaller booklet maker (20 sheets) - I guess folks thought the size of the 200 page booklet maker was too big – you have a 25 sheet booklet maker…

All the accessories have been enhanced and wont work on 6500. New GBC punch also. Still the best online finishing options in the industry.

4. New perfect binder (up to 300 sheets) - Depending on the size of the books, choosing to perfect bind inline will have a major impact on productivity. A “near line” system would be faster.

The engine produces books at rated speed, you can't make the engine run any faster with accessories.

By the way, what is a 5065? I think that was a Xerox machine form the 80's.
Has anyone not named Konica Minolta seen toner scratch off a Xerox anything?

I think this is a AP machine.

Here is two great questions for anyone evaluting machines; 1. When I run a job 20% color and 80% B&W, will I get charged for entire job in color or just what I used?
2. Will my machine stop and AUTO CALIBRATE like all the other BIZ Hubs every few minutes or so?

Colour is colour. The c500 was extremely bad at auto calibrating. The c500 was extremely bad at everything. This problem does not exist in the c6500.

Please reference any delta ratings so people can see what you are talking about and who did the testing.

What kind of readings so you want?

 

[xxeroid]

WRONG - The write units had a problem on yellow line screen that caused the edges of print to fade. This was resolved with a new type of linescreen ina firmware upgrade. This new write unit resolves the problem completely. The DC5000 has the same problem but on all colours and is unresolvable.



You can change toner on the fly but most customers requested improved yields.



All the accessories have been enhanced and wont work on 6500. New GBC punch also. Still the best online finishing options in the industry.

The Bizhubs have finishing that Xerox can only dream about.


The engine produces books at rated speed, you can't make the engine run any faster with accessories.

With the finishing accessories, they actually speed up to 105 pages per minute. This is done in the "relay unit" as the media leaves the engine.



I think this is a AP machine.

Yes the 5065 is an AP machine. It has also had different DFE's on it, and been called the DCC5540, 6550, 7550, DC250, 252, 260 and so on, and so on. You will also find the engine in the DC5000 and now in the DC700. Classic Xerox stuff, build one engine, and rename the hell out of it over the next 5 years or so.



Colour is colour. The c500 was extremely bad at auto calibrating. The c500 was extremely bad at everything. This problem does not exist in the c6500.



What kind of readings so you want?

Its the Delta E ratings/readings that are interesting. If you have a look at comparisons between the DC700 and Bizhub C6500, Delta E is massively better on the Bizhub. Basically, this is its ability to hold colour over a run i.e colour consistancy.......something X haven't mastered yet haha

 

[random]

Yeah, I was wondering what specific dE readings he was after as in sheet to sheet, side to side, every 100 or 1000?

 

[GregNac19]

Explain the reading and who did the testing. That is what I am asking for. I must say that Xeriod seems to be an old angry employee. Why did you switch?

 

[smatros]

to smatros: i'm curious which channel you acquired your xerox 700 from?

the print quality on the 700 is outstanding. it is value priced machine for the right applications and volumes

We purchased it from the national xerox dealer, have a service contract directly with xerox.
machine has several serious flaws and we are seriously considering returning it, especially due to arrogant Xerox behavior.

Print quality? Tested on several stocks, some even Xerox recommended. When printing on coated paper 13x19" (330x480 mm) almost 4 cm on the short edge side are unusable due to unresolved fuser problems. Intensive colors (for example 200% Black - 100K, 100M) is peeling off the paper. Color consistency and accuracy is almost a joke.
Registration and alignment can be set up to be under 1 mm, but it looses settings after some printing. The most ridiculous thing - a service specialist for Central & Eastern Europe, acclaimed to be the top 1 person for the X700 machine, who came to examine our machine, took out a metal plate part to reduce the registration mistake and claimed it is unnecessary. I'd rather not mention the Creo rip problems and bugs.

In total we lost over 12o.ooo euro (around 150.000 usd) of business due to such machine problems (comparing to our last years income and our growth in 1-10/2008) we are at a point of returning it, switching to KM and suing Xerox for the damages. The thing that bothers me most is the terrible behavior of Xerox people, who even appointed a lawyer to handle communication with us instead of resolving problems. They are claiming the machines work ok (not true, as we have been in contact with other printers who also bought it, and have similar problems - as well as seeral people here on forum report the same). Since Xerox was unable to resolve any of the mentioned problems, not even 1, I strongly discourage people from buying it at the moment.

 

[GregNac19]

I am sorry you don't live in America where all your problems could be fixed with a simple replacement machine. This is not normal!

 

[Craig]

I am sorry you don't live in America where all your problems could be fixed with a simple replacement machine. This is not normal!

I don't understand why our brothers across the pond would be treated any different? What's up with that?

 

[smatros]

I have tested on every paper (non-Xerox) and the results are very good. It has some issues on coated stocks (i.e. 150gr. Velvet paper, 3pl. coated) due to improper fuser.
I'm using the "High Latch" fuser (the standard one, comes with the machine) which is more appropriate on light-to-mid weight papers. You may also use the "Low Latch" fuser for some paper types.

Something to try: Reduce the "Adjust Image Transfer" option to 50%. (from 100% or 150%) and replace the drums. The main problem occurs because if you calibrating the machine with the "off-the-glass" procedure (using Creo) it builds calibration tables with VERY HIGH DENSITY values. Try to decrease those values indirect: Build a "Gradation Table" and adjust the 100% value to 95 - 97% for every color.



It has no registration issues. I have save all the alignment settings for every paper type and every tray. I have different alignment settings for trays 1-2-3 and different for Oversized 6 & 7. You have to do the job twice.
Most Important: When building alignment settings do not use a predefined custom paper when loading the paper. Build and use only alignment settings for every tray group (1-2-3) and choose the paper as "Uncoated" ot "Coated" and the weight separately from custom paper type.

Creo is very expensive for what it offers. It has lots of bugs and does not support color calibration editing in density level, if have not buying the "Graphic Arts Premium Package" or something like. Result: You need to spend more than 15.000 Euros i spend in order to "play" with it as a proffesional. It's Shad!!!
Good thing: An SP1 is now available and it seems to work better. Do all the windows downloads (Windows SP3, and others) and then install the service pack.

Thank you for the info. I have a meeting next week with country manager, after that I'll decide how to proceed.
There are fuser problems, we have had it changed 3 times with 3 versions and some prints on coated stocks still look like crap when you print on 13x19 sized paper. When printing on smaller, for example 320x450 mm it is a bit better.

Our unit looses alignment settings after xx prints. When you set it up the alignment and registration are pretty ok, but do not last long. We have 9 different paper stocks, and for 4 trays that we use it takes about 3 hours to do all alignment settings. If I have to do them every other day it's a terrible waste of time.

We have creo full pack with professional calibration from xrite and all additional features. We have SP1 installed.

In general my opinion: This machine has been launched too soon and it is a shame for Xerox.

When I finish the meeting and see what is going on I will inform the Xerox USA, as someone here should take the responsibility for the terrible situation and service.

 

[XAdvice]

Fusers

Fusers

If you are having fuser problems please ask you Service Engineer to make sure you have the latest engine software. This software automatically adjusts the fuser gap in the high or low position depending on the paper weight selected. This means you do not need two different fusers.

Commenting on quote:

"I'm using the "High Latch" fuser (the standard one, comes with the machine) which is more appropriate on light-to-mid weight papers. You may also use the "Low Latch" fuser for some paper types."

 

[xit791]

I demo'd the Xerox 700 last night, along with the docucolor 260. The print output on these is supposed to be true 2400. I'm supposed to see the KM Biz Hub box next week. Any feedback from folks operating these machines would be appreciated.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

An iGen4 is still only 600x600 dpi. Look beyond what is filled in on the spec sheets. Test files comparable to what you will be printing on paper weights and sizes you intend on running.

No machine is perfect that is why they all sell service contracts. We have found with several Konica units that there are different levels of color management and production printing experience out there. Ask how many printers they are currently servicing. How far away is their technician compared with Xerox's, when it goes down you need it up ASAP.

 

[southontprint]

Yes Xerox is proud of their decurler and go on and on about it. The reason for this is that the DC5065, DC252, DC260 was so shocking with its curl, that they had to nut something out to fix it.

Sorry, but a newbie to these forums, but I came across this whilst googling. What was the curling solution they "nutted out" (I am running a DC250 and some card stocks are curling a heck of a lot more than others....)

 

[GregNac19]

Sorry, but a newbie to these forums, but I came across this whilst googling. What was the curling solution they "nutted out" (I am running a DC250 and some card stocks are curling a heck of a lot more than others....)

I lost a bet at a demo by telling someone, "I will give you five dollars if you can get this curl out". He laughed and made the curl go from a U to a actually fold under. This paper was know to curl horriblly.
Just so you know there are 3 total decurlers you can add to the machine. One comes standard and it is postitioned right after the fuser.
This not a "nutted out" solution. Take a look and bet someone in a Demo and see how much money you lose!