Yellow ink contamination?
- Thread starter wyagow
- Start date
I am currently using an agitator. Part of me has to wonder if the brand of ink I'm using is the problem. The press is an SM 52 anicolor. I don't remember having this much of a problem when we were using Saphira ink provided by Heidelberg. Of course everything is about cost savings these days thus the reason different ink.
I agree. Ink sequence is KCMY. Ink company changed their formulation on ink to us. Said they were no longer going to make that ink specifically for my press. So we were to adjust our curves to their new formula. Turned out that the cyan is a much higher density now and it was migrating into the yellow turning it green. I finally told my ink man that we are the customer and that the ink company needs to formulate ink for my press that works or I'm moving on to the next company that will. I still had some Superior (Saphira) ink cyan laying around and am using it now with great success.
gordo
Well-known member
I would be very concerned about the printer doping the ink to try and solve the symptom of the problem. Better to lean heaviliy on the ink vendor to deal with it.
Gordo, ink vendors today are mostly numb, rather than a lean, start with a cold slap in the face.
Really, the commercial ink companies do not provide service of this nature on any regular basis. Dem days is gone!.
I would still suggest what I prescribed and than show the ink goons the sheets and submit to them the adjusted sample. Put 1/2 lb. in a washed out peanut can with a poly top. That may give the printer a chance for some remedy in a shelf ready ink, after the simple formulation modification.
Best wishes John Q. Printer, hopefully you are not buying from a middleman supplier. I suggest Flint ink for web heat-set and perhaps Superior for sheet fed east coast US and Gans west coast US. Outside the USA, good luck. Maybe Flint, Sun if in desperation, but you better be a larger volume user. TOYO is another possibility globally.
D Ink Man
Really, the commercial ink companies do not provide service of this nature on any regular basis. Dem days is gone!.
I would still suggest what I prescribed and than show the ink goons the sheets and submit to them the adjusted sample. Put 1/2 lb. in a washed out peanut can with a poly top. That may give the printer a chance for some remedy in a shelf ready ink, after the simple formulation modification.
Best wishes John Q. Printer, hopefully you are not buying from a middleman supplier. I suggest Flint ink for web heat-set and perhaps Superior for sheet fed east coast US and Gans west coast US. Outside the USA, good luck. Maybe Flint, Sun if in desperation, but you better be a larger volume user. TOYO is another possibility globally.
D Ink Man
Random selection of a middleman ink supplied and lucking out into ink and/or rotation is not the long term solution. If you want to run that kind of mish mosh on your equipment, expect a short fuse going forward. Saphira brand is the trademark of the magic ink of change. When that resell decides to"change" the formula it will be for reasons that you will not get an honest answer to. However, it will still be called Saphira. Expect this down the road; just a matter of time.
Fire your ink man and ink company and deliver your promise of moving on.
Those who hesitate will be lost in this saga. Sage wisdom my friend. Get to moving and good skill to you.
D
turbotom1052
Well-known member
I think there is a common misconception among many pressman, that in zones with no ink coverage, or in zones outside of the paper perimeter. ink keys should be shut down to zero ink feed. This thinking is wrong. You need to always feed a little bit of ink. The amount to be determined by the particulars of your press, and the form. If your a pressman that shuts down the fountain completely, outside of the paper perimeter, then I submit that there is migration of ink on other units as well. The yellow run down last will tend to show it the worst because its the lightest color, and most affected by the slightest bit of contamination. The only color that will not become contaminated in such an instance would be the first down ink.
If AFTER trying my suggestion to allow some ink flow into the zero coverage areas, your still faced with contamination, then I would say that D ink man is correct. Your probably either dealing with a yellow ink that is too strongly pigmented, or..... a yellow ink that is too tacky, which often winds up being one and the same, because as an ink film gets thinner, its tack properties increase. In this case D ink man would also be correct ,in saying to add some transparent white to the yellow ink as a test to see if the problem is resolved. I would also agree with him in saying ,that about 20 percent transparent white would be the proper amount. One you've established that this in fact is the problem, then my suggestion would be either turn to your ink supplier for a long term solution as you don't want to have to be altering your inks with every fountain fill.
D ink man is also correct in saying that tech service in many ink companies is very lacking at best. If your fortunate enough to be working with a supplier, that actually knows enough about their product to solve these formulation issues, then I would say that they are worth paying a little more for. One of the problems I see over and over in our industry, is that price is the deciding factor in all buying decisions, to include the hiring of qualified personnel. Any pressman with skills that exceed the level of button pushing should know, or at least be able to figure out what I've just outlined. Unfortunately that is not the case these days because in a companies quest to save money, the tendency has been to do away with formal apprenticeships, and promote press crews right off the broom.
The hiring trend these days to man these software driven presses, seems to be that its easier to train a computer guy to print, than it is to train an already skilled craft driven mentality guy on the software. Imagine the possibilities, hiring managers if you could have both??? Problem is that having a guy capable of both would wind up costing you money over time, as anyone with the sense to do both, would also have the sense to know his or her worth!!!
If AFTER trying my suggestion to allow some ink flow into the zero coverage areas, your still faced with contamination, then I would say that D ink man is correct. Your probably either dealing with a yellow ink that is too strongly pigmented, or..... a yellow ink that is too tacky, which often winds up being one and the same, because as an ink film gets thinner, its tack properties increase. In this case D ink man would also be correct ,in saying to add some transparent white to the yellow ink as a test to see if the problem is resolved. I would also agree with him in saying ,that about 20 percent transparent white would be the proper amount. One you've established that this in fact is the problem, then my suggestion would be either turn to your ink supplier for a long term solution as you don't want to have to be altering your inks with every fountain fill.
D ink man is also correct in saying that tech service in many ink companies is very lacking at best. If your fortunate enough to be working with a supplier, that actually knows enough about their product to solve these formulation issues, then I would say that they are worth paying a little more for. One of the problems I see over and over in our industry, is that price is the deciding factor in all buying decisions, to include the hiring of qualified personnel. Any pressman with skills that exceed the level of button pushing should know, or at least be able to figure out what I've just outlined. Unfortunately that is not the case these days because in a companies quest to save money, the tendency has been to do away with formal apprenticeships, and promote press crews right off the broom.
The hiring trend these days to man these software driven presses, seems to be that its easier to train a computer guy to print, than it is to train an already skilled craft driven mentality guy on the software. Imagine the possibilities, hiring managers if you could have both??? Problem is that having a guy capable of both would wind up costing you money over time, as anyone with the sense to do both, would also have the sense to know his or her worth!!!
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Sincerely would like to say that turbotom1052 has given a perfect explanation of everything pertaining to this original post. Sir, you went beyond the points that I made with the focus on fixing it with ink alone. When I read your reply, I good goose bumps and there were tears in my eyes. Not because you validated the points I had made, but because you up and beyond them. The points about ink key settings , based on coverage areas was excellent. You took the post and explained everything that contributes to the problem and all avenues to provide remedy. You explained what is going on in the industry past, present and how so much is not right. turbotom1052, you explained the truth and ramifications, beyond the post and the effect it has to this problems the effect it has all throughout the businesses that are involved. I apologize for repeating your points, but your vision and truth is something all forum members should think about with your intelligent minds.
It is good to know that people like turbotom1052 take the time and are generous enough to share great wisdoms and analysis of the 'Big Picture'. Your post sir has helped me with the belief, that experienced people can somehow offer insight such as yours and that perhaps others will take notice and be sensitized to it. That would be a great hope for our industry to get back on a more focused strategy through understanding where we came from, where we are and the possibility of calibrating our efforts for improved future direction.
Thank you from my heart turbotom1052 for your proof of understanding. Please fellow tradesman, owners and powers to be, take the time to read this for the betterment of mankind. turbotom1052 has laid the foundation, please let us build on it. Sincerely, D Ink Man
It is good to know that people like turbotom1052 take the time and are generous enough to share great wisdoms and analysis of the 'Big Picture'. Your post sir has helped me with the belief, that experienced people can somehow offer insight such as yours and that perhaps others will take notice and be sensitized to it. That would be a great hope for our industry to get back on a more focused strategy through understanding where we came from, where we are and the possibility of calibrating our efforts for improved future direction.
Thank you from my heart turbotom1052 for your proof of understanding. Please fellow tradesman, owners and powers to be, take the time to read this for the betterment of mankind. turbotom1052 has laid the foundation, please let us build on it. Sincerely, D Ink Man
turbotom1052
Well-known member
AWW shucks!!!!
Alois Senefelder
Well-known member
turbotom1052
Well-known member
Alois,
If you were to re read my post you will find that I offered the suggestion to dilute the strength of the yellow ink only as a test to accurately trouble shoot a problem. I never suggested that you do that on a regular basis. As a matter of fact I followed that suggestion up with instructions to have your ink company offer a long term fix in the form of re formulating the yellow ink. As far as using fountain dividers and roller lube on the ink zones outside of the sheet perimeter, Id like to know the name of the company that would allow such a time consuming process, because I want to come out of retiremnet and go to work for them. Ill bet that company would also be manning their multicolor 40 inch presses with 3 guys.
So lets assume that Im able to land this dream job. I still would not do as you suggest, and allow roller lube to share the same ink train, on a printing unit running a live job. I think you would have a pretty hard time keeping the non image areas on the forms edges clean. Ever try inking up and printing on top of a unit full of roller lube? If you've been able to do that with any success, then please share with the forum the name of the product so that we may all reap the benefiets of such a product.
If you were to re read my post you will find that I offered the suggestion to dilute the strength of the yellow ink only as a test to accurately trouble shoot a problem. I never suggested that you do that on a regular basis. As a matter of fact I followed that suggestion up with instructions to have your ink company offer a long term fix in the form of re formulating the yellow ink. As far as using fountain dividers and roller lube on the ink zones outside of the sheet perimeter, Id like to know the name of the company that would allow such a time consuming process, because I want to come out of retiremnet and go to work for them. Ill bet that company would also be manning their multicolor 40 inch presses with 3 guys.
So lets assume that Im able to land this dream job. I still would not do as you suggest, and allow roller lube to share the same ink train, on a printing unit running a live job. I think you would have a pretty hard time keeping the non image areas on the forms edges clean. Ever try inking up and printing on top of a unit full of roller lube? If you've been able to do that with any success, then please share with the forum the name of the product so that we may all reap the benefiets of such a product.
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Alois Senefelder
Well-known member
Hello Turbotom,
It was a common practice of mine ...... when running Narrow Webs on any of our Web Offset Presses, to use Roller Lubrication Paste very successfully.......
Millions of Meters of Coated/Uncoated Paper !!!!!!!!!!
It was a common practice of mine ...... when running Narrow Webs on any of our Web Offset Presses, to use Roller Lubrication Paste very successfully.......
Millions of Meters of Coated/Uncoated Paper !!!!!!!!!!
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turbotom1052
Well-known member
I ask once again to share the product that was able to run side by side with a litho ink and print clean without scumming? Unless of course your cutting your blanket packings to avoid transfer from plate to blanket of the scummed areas. If this was your remedy then id like to know how you kept the plate edges from building an excess of fountain solution that would ultimately wind up causing a host of other problems???
Excellent activity this morning around Print Planet. Like it and like turbotom1052's fresh and insightful contributions. I have missed you for a while.
Also, did Gordo put up his comic strip of the week yesterday? Have not looked at home page for a while. Have a good week everyone. D
Also, did Gordo put up his comic strip of the week yesterday? Have not looked at home page for a while. Have a good week everyone. D
Alois Senefelder
Well-known member
Hello turbo,
Answers - re Roller Lubrication Paste.
I promise no "Magic" involved ! - just good S.O.P. and a vigilant crew.
Dampening Control on the Half - web, we used Baldwin Zonal Water Stops.
The paste was from a leading UK Ink Maker, (A) the press a Harris M 200 16pg H/set, max. web width 38 in. (965 mm)
running 8pg half-web 19 in. (482 mm) after printing 50,000 copies the same press would M/ready for a 16pg signature
965 mm web width, new plates mounted, while crawling the full web through the press we would "Wash-up" on the
web all the roller trains/ blankets.
Regards, Alois
Answers - re Roller Lubrication Paste.
I promise no "Magic" involved ! - just good S.O.P. and a vigilant crew.
Dampening Control on the Half - web, we used Baldwin Zonal Water Stops.
The paste was from a leading UK Ink Maker, (A) the press a Harris M 200 16pg H/set, max. web width 38 in. (965 mm)
running 8pg half-web 19 in. (482 mm) after printing 50,000 copies the same press would M/ready for a 16pg signature
965 mm web width, new plates mounted, while crawling the full web through the press we would "Wash-up" on the
web all the roller trains/ blankets.
Regards, Alois
turbotom1052
Well-known member
so please share with the forum how you were able to print clean on a printing unit that had roller lube on the ends. Brings to mind the rare occasion when Id mistakenly ink up and unit before washing off the roller lube. I remember knowing right away, when trying to roll up the plate, that Id forgotten to wash up the lube. I found it impossible to print with even the slightest traces of roller lube on the rollers. It was a no brainer that the lube had to be washed off the rollers before there was any hope of printing on that unit. Im really curious to know the product that was able to seemingly defy all rules of pressmanship as we knew them in the United States. If you Brits have some top secret stuff that allows you to do it I would say that this is the place to share. After all isn't this what this forum is all about??? Perhaps you've got a PDF in your vast library to post on how this is possible. Either way Alois its time to come clean and share with the forum.
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