Creeping (Shingling) Saddle Stitch w/ Crossovers

Jimmy

Member
I got a nightmare job recently. It was an 84 page saddle stitch job with crossovers (photos) on every single page and to make things worse, there was a .375" white border on each spread as well.

I explained to the customer creep (shingling) issues and told him that this will be a challenge for us, especially to keep the white border consistent. He insisted to saddle stitch the job.

I normally would creep (shingle) this in Preps but I couldn't because of the cross overs. If I did creep it in Preps, a slice of the image closest to the spine would be missing. I ended up figuring out how much I needed to creep each page and did it all in INDD. It was a mathematical nightmare and it took forever to adjust the INDD file accordingly.

Have you encountered jobs like this? Is there an easier solution that has worked for you?
 
I got a nightmare job recently. It was an 84 page saddle stitch job with crossovers (photos) on every single page and to make things worse, there was a .375" white border on each spread as well.

I explained to the customer creep (shingling) issues and told him that this will be a challenge for us, especially to keep the white border consistent. He insisted to saddle stitch the job.

I normally would creep (shingle) this in Preps but I couldn't because of the cross overs. If I did creep it in Preps, a slice of the image closest to the spine would be missing. I ended up figuring out how much I needed to creep each page and did it all in INDD. It was a mathematical nightmare and it took forever to adjust the INDD file accordingly.

Have you encountered jobs like this? Is there an easier solution that has worked for you?

In Preps 5.3 and Preps 6 there is an option for creep scaling which scales the page in the horizontal direction. It's not enough of a scale to notice in most cases but it allows you to shingle pages that crossover.
 
The only way to preserve the borders AND the cross-overs AND not adjust the relative position of different elements on the page (by moving images within their clipping frames and moving objects closer to each other) is to disproportionally reduce the pages from spread center in the X axis only. Every four pages on a final "signature" would have the same percentage reduction and all four page groups would be different from each other. I've never done that, but would probably do so with a job like that. Shingling algorithms are usually linear, which doesn't accurately model reality (while the pages in the middle lose width, the outside pages also gain width, and the effect grows non-linearly with increasing book thickness), so even going to that extreme doesn't guarantee precise results.

If a book has lots of cross-overs I usually don't compensate for shingling, but that wouldn't be feasible for 84 pages. When I do compensate for shingling with books containing cross-overs, I usually let the RIP automatically move every page, but I manually move the cross-over elements the opposite direction in the PDF with Pitstop, so that the net effect is that the cross-over elements stay where they are but everything else on the page moves.

I've attached the Excel document I created to calculate those distances. Only two fields are meant to be input: total pages and caliper. The caliper is in inches because that's how paper caliper is usually specified. The automatically calculated distance field is the total shingle distance and is in millimeters, because I have our RIP set to use metric units for more precision. For each page, the distance and direction to move the artwork is given in inches. It does not give the direction the RIP will move the pages in, but rather the opposite direction because the objects need to move against the direction of shingling compensation.
 

Attachments

  • Shingling & cross-over calculation.xls.zip
    11.9 KB · Views: 276
We have this problem often.
Joe, your comment about Preps 5.3 having an option for creep scaling sounds like the answer I have been looking for, but I can't find it in our current version 5.3. Were is it or do I need to look at an upgrade which I would do for this feature alone if I knew it was there. I have not found any reference to this on Kodaks website.
 
With inpO2 from Dynagram, you get a visual of the pages and the creep amount being applied to each page. Then you can go into the page list and either disable creep for the crossover pages, or adjust the creep to moderate the amount of movement.

No matter what, cross overs are a pain with creep. Good luck!
 
It looks like Joe's solution would be the best way to go but I did a test and it looks like you would have to print out each signature at different percentages. It would be little cumbersome but not nearly as bad as my solution.

Kyle, That Excel file is sweet and will be real handy. Thanks
 
It looks like Joe's solution would be the best way to go but I did a test and it looks like you would have to print out each signature at different percentages. It would be little cumbersome but not nearly as bad as my solution.

Kyle, That Excel file is sweet and will be real handy. Thanks

No, you do not have to print out each signature at different percentages. You put the creep amount in and then check the box for creep scaling. Ir works the exact way as creep instead of moving pages it scales them in the horizontal direction. As DCurry mentioned you do need to upgrad to 5.3.3 to get this feature. See attached.
 

Attachments

  • Screen shot 2010-01-23 at 12.42.52 AM.jpg
    Screen shot 2010-01-23 at 12.42.52 AM.jpg
    19 KB · Views: 256
We have just completed a 48 page saddle stiched job that has a 3.5mm white border around every page.
The kreep was not enough and I am trying to find out what went wrong.
We printed it on 148gsm matt and it was overall matt Aquis varnished. We entered the paper thickness (0.1mm) in Signa that calculates and applies the kreep. Should we have included the thickness of the varnish and the ink, (most pages have 100% coverage) in the calculation? Is there some kind of a folmula that we can use to determine all these factors in order to give Signa a more accurate figure to work with.
 
I don't know how Signa handles it, but in Preps you enter the total creep amount, not the paper thickness.
 
We have just completed a 48 page saddle stiched job that has a 3.5mm white border around every page.
The kreep was not enough and I am trying to find out what went wrong.
We printed it on 148gsm matt and it was overall matt Aquis varnished. We entered the paper thickness (0.1mm) in Signa that calculates and applies the kreep. Should we have included the thickness of the varnish and the ink, (most pages have 100% coverage) in the calculation? Is there some kind of a folmula that we can use to determine all these factors in order to give Signa a more accurate figure to work with.

What kind of stitch machine do you use ?
 
We use a Muller Martini Presto

It looks good, do you measure the paper yourself ?
Also, what is the difference in the white border ? how many mm first page compared to the middle ?

The best solution (I think ;)) is to take blank folded sheets and measure the difference between the fisrt page and the middle - this gives you value X . Than look into signa and measure the same with creeping you have set with measuring tool - this gives you value Y
then X/Y gives you paper thickness factor
This number you can insert in creeping options.
 
Thanks for the advice - We did find the problem. If you use an existing template that has had kreep applied and you apply a new value Signa keeps the old value.
 
Glad you found the problem.
Even though the calculation is "linear" if you look carefully at a thick folded mag you'll notice that as the number of pages inceases they are curved at the spine complicating the equation. It is usually small enough to neglect.
But can't help but minirant about how designers are getting more demanding and less understanding that we have to adapt to reality instead of thinking that reality can bend to designers whims.
 
Lucas, this is a piece I wrote a couple of years ago as an intro to a book someone wanted to write about his experiences in the printing trade . . . think yoy will enjoy it

What now?
The age old argument – if I keep to all the rules and regulations that you printers and repro houses prescribe, my designs will all be restricted and my creativity bottled, no freedom.
Well, how many times have you received a phone call from your printer or repro house to tell you that your design will not work, that they have to add 10mm to the left hand side of every page because the holes that has to be punched will go through the text? Let us turn this question around. How many times have you phoned your printer or repro house for advice before you start a design or get into some really complicated piece of printed matter that has to look like a ball but erect like a mega structure?
Let us start at the beginning. When the Monks chiseled a book out of a piece of rock and it took them 25 years to complete one page do you think they would have obliged if you asked them to change the type face? We are sure they made some mistakes along the road.
When Guttenberg rolled out the first book that was made up and printed using movable letters - how many people were as excited as he was? He must have made a mistake or two while producing this first ever publication.
When the first printers compiled printing material they must have been very pleased with their handy work. Did everything turn out hunky dory? We doubt it.
When the repro house or printer put a page together from a trace guide supplied – boy oh boy – at first proof stage the logo always had to move a quarter mil to the left and it had to be optically straightened. All the fullstops had to be outside the justification line on the right hand side. . .
The Monks, Guttenberg, the first printers and the repro houses all had something in common – they used dedicated equipment – tools designed to do the job at hand and nothing else. Imagine using the mono caster as a calculator or the step and repeat machine to do colour separations.
We are sure that all these guys who did the actual work planned it very carefully before they just let loose. They also followed a carefully prepared and preserved set of rules (Lets call them rules for now) passed down from master printer to journeyman to apprentice, generation after generation. For instance. How do you determine the best set width for a specific font and font size? What is the relation between the space inserted in the heads, tails, backs and gutters of a page? A passion for the trade. They were pregnant with new ideas, full of enthusiasm to experiment, perfect them and then to let the world share. They even had a measurement, Ems (12point or pica was the standard) used by most printers and Cicero used by the French, that were unique to the printing industry. Imagine your very own measurement system! The rest of the world measured in inches and later in millimeters.
With Desktop Publishing making an appearance in the early eighties the world of the dedicated journeyman and dedicated equipment came to a grounding halt. All of a sudden everything that was unique to the printing and related trades were available to the general public. This is still true today. What is not freely available to the so called general public is the experience that has been gained through the years. Those well guarded little secrets that make the job at hand so much more fun and allow it to run smoother so you can enjoy what you are doing and just keep on doing more and more!
Nothing is more frustrating than when you hold in your hand your well prepared masterpiece of a design, copy written by the best copy writer in town, carefully proof read, sighed off by the client, brilliantly printed in seven colours, exquisitely foiled, embossed on all 64 pages, section sewn, onionskin dividers, fold out pocket with gusset for 8 inserts on the inside back cover, neatly die-cut, overall gloss uv’ed and just the correct amount of spot matt uv to break the contrast around the logo and as you page, all 4 sections of the text fall out of the cover. You phone the printer and he says: ‘‘But you wanted the cover uv’ed on both sides’’ Then you say ‘‘But . . .’’ Nothing is sane anymore, you want to laugh or scream, maybe cry! As you start reading the text, with the phone still in you hand and the printer on the other side, you see that somehow the font you used has defaulted to capital fullstops all over the show and just to make your day, they are all upside down!!! What now ?
The objective of this publication is to freely distribute and communicate these everyday potholes and landmines that we all tend to sort of forget when the going gets tough, the deadline lurks, the client is going overseas and the planes on the airports are slipping because of all the wet ink jobs that was delivered. Info and tips gathered, tested and tried, not to constrain creativity but rather compliment it, walk side by side and learn from each other to benefit all. Designers do not just design and printers does not just print. Those days are gone forever. Together they create a masterpiece in communication.
 
We did try this, and maybe we are not doing this right, but we are putting in our shingling dimensions into the inner .135 to be exact, then selecting scale.

When we do this it appears that maybe only the left side pages are being effected, and some are going the opposite way. Do we put in a negative value?

Thanks in Advance for the Help
 

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