EskoArtworks, Equinox?

[Bradleyp]

If you wanted to work on text and tint (vector) then you would use MaxColor within MaxPro. That way you could work on all elements in one file. So we would RIP the Illustrator file into LW and CT at say 2400 Res for LW and 300 for CT. You can actually Raster LW up to 5800 Res. The Colour Library allows for up to 64,000 colour palettes with each individual palette having a mix of up to 64 separations (OK, extreme and you would never use that many seps or palettes but there's the spec).

What if the file is only LW (vector) spot colors? Can the user import/edit a tint recipe library (e.g. PANTONE > CMYK++) within MaxPro? (i.e. to avoid rasterizing LW in MaxColor).

Brad.

 

[Steve Donegan]

What if the file is only LW (vector) spot colors? Can the user import/edit a tint recipe library (e.g. PANTONE > CMYK++) within MaxPro? (i.e. to avoid rasterizing LW in MaxColor).

Brad.

MaxPro uses it's .mp file format irrespective of whether a file has LW, CT or a combination of both.

If you mean can you open a LW which is multiple Spot Colour, generate colour palettes made up of CMYK + + and apply these to replace the Spot colours then yes.

While you are at it, you could trap the file as well in a WYSIWYG environment.

Once complete, output is PDF, .PS, Gravure Tiff...

 

[Stephen Marsh]

What if the file is only LW (vector) spot colors?

Brad.

Brad, it sounds like MaxPro uses the old Scitex raster model (I am not saying that it is exactly the same, just a similar concept, perhaps taking better advantage of today's processing power). This would very much be a "late binding" workflow.

A LW file is a very high resolution raster (perhaps "index" colour and linked to a LUT), and a CT file is a lower resolution raster. There is NO vector. The LW/CT model predates PostScript and PDF vectors. Back in the days of Scitex systems ruling the roost, one would RIP .ps data into the Scitex LW/CT and related formats using Scitex RIP software on the Mac known as VIP (Visual Interpreter for PostScript), or a "low end" Scitex workstation such as the "Star?" would have .ps conversion options. Those days are mostly a blur in my memory now!


Stephen Marsh

 

[Bradleyp]

A LW file is a very high resolution raster (perhaps "index" colour and linked to a LUT), and a CT file is a lower resolution raster. There is NO vector. The LW/CT model predates PostScript and PDF vectors.

OK, thanks for explaining.

Brad.

 

[Bradleyp]

MaxPro uses it's .mp file format irrespective of whether a file has LW, CT or a combination of both.
If you mean can you open a LW which is multiple Spot Colour, generate colour palettes made up of CMYK ++ and apply these to replace the Spot colours then yes.

Just to clarify, does MaxPro automatically apply the PANTONE > CMYK++ conversion on import (subject to the multi-color pallet loaded), or must the operator manually map each PANTONE color to the respective CMYK++ values?

Brad.

 

[Steve Donegan]

Just to clarify, does MaxPro automatically apply the PANTONE > CMYK++ conversion on import (subject to the multi-color pallet loaded), or must the operator manually map each PANTONE color to the respective CMYK++ values?

Brad.

No - the process would be - Open file - Select colour Filter - Process.

The colour filter would contain the CMYK+, CMYK ++, CMY++ etc... mixture - so you could have a library of these predefined colour mixtures.

You could also choose to apply the filter only to specific separations within the document.

 

[Bradleyp]

No - the process would be - Open file - Select colour Filter - Process.The colour filter would contain the CMYK+, CMYK ++, CMY++ etc... mixture - so you could have a library of these predefined colour mixtures. You could also choose to apply the filter only to specific separations within the document.

OK, so 'Select colour Filter - Process' is fully automatic then. Do you have some sort of demo or Youtube clip to see this in action? Thanks.

Brad.

 

[Steve Donegan]

OK, so 'Select colour Filter - Process' is fully automatic then. Do you have some sort of demo or Youtube clip to see this in action? Thanks.

Brad.

Not at present Brad - when we do, it will go up on Graphic Republik - YouTube - I will keep you posted.

 

[Bradleyp]

Not at present Brad - when we do, it will go up on Graphic Republik - YouTube - I will keep you posted.

Thanks. BTW, I visited your website. Do you have a distributor and/or customers in the US? How do you rate your multi-color system against Kodak & Esko?

Brad.

 

[Steve Donegan]

Thanks. BTW, I visited your website. Do you have a distributor and/or customers in the US? How do you rate your multi-color system against Kodak & Esko?

Brad.

Not for MaxPro/MaxColor...

For the 2nd question, I don't know how they work from a colour conversion point of view.

What I can say is that MaxPro and MaxColor allow you to do far more than colour conversion.

The post conversion editing tools are very good.

They allow users to carry out additional adjustments such as selective editing of selected combination ink overlaps.

As good as any colour conversion system may be, having the facility to edit the converted job, both text and tone in a single application is a plus.

Being able to see on screen how those spot colour channels overlap is also definitely a good thing - no more working blind.

 

[Bradleyp]

As far as I can tell, the ability of Opaltone to simulate te Pantone library only applies to digital imaging, i.e. inkjet proofers, inkjet presses et. al. and not to analog presses.

Just found this article OFC_PPMNYIssue2013.indd, states Opaltone simulates spots in both inkjet proof & print (flexo, offset).

Brad.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

I just came back from a visit to the site that uses Spotless (they use CMYKOV, although it could be any set of colours).

I gave them a CMYK+Spot PDF to refine through the Prinergy/Spotless workflow (the file was actually two process and two spots Y+K+PMS363+PMS032). The file had spot colours in the text, vectors and images.

I can confirm the Kodak Spotless does indeed convert spot colours in *both* RASTER and VECTOR into the spotless colour seps (in this case CMYKOV). It is not restricted to only vectors. Even though the original artwork did not use Cyan or Magenta, the green 363 ended up being made with cyan and the red 032 ended up being made with magenta.


Regards,

Stephen Marsh

 

[gordo]

Hmmm, there's Spotless and there's Prinergy. If there's a 6 color profile then Prinergy will use it to do the raster separations. Otherwise Spotless will use its LUT to create screen tint builds to simulate spot colors that reference CIE Lab values.

best gordon

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Hmmm, there's Spotless and there's Prinergy. If there's a 6 color profile then Prinergy will use it to do the raster separations. Otherwise Spotless will use its LUT to create screen tint builds to simulate spot colors that reference CIE Lab values.

best gordon

There is indeed a CMYKOV 6 colour profile in their Prinergy refine process template Gordo.

You are correct, they are both separate software products.

Are you saying that without the profile of their spotless conditions in Prinergy, then this would be a manual early binding process upstream in the artwork creation process, rather than being a late binding PDF workflow process?

Seems like things are not as clear as I thought... Hah, what a surprise!


Stephen Marsh

 

[Steve Donegan]

I just came back from a visit to the site that uses Spotless (they use CMYKOV, although it could be any set of colours).

I gave them a CMYK+Spot PDF to refine through the Prinergy/Spotless workflow (the file was actually two process and two spots Y+K+PMS363+PMS032). The file had spot colours in the text, vectors and images.

I can confirm the Kodak Spotless does indeed convert spot colours in *both* RASTER and VECTOR into the spotless colour seps (in this case CMYKOV). It is not restricted to only vectors. Even though the original artwork did not use Cyan or Magenta, the green 363 ended up being made with cyan and the red 032 ended up being made with magenta.


Regards,

Stephen Marsh

Stephen,

Once the conversion has taken place, is there a facility to make adjustments to the raster images which have been converted?

Steve

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Steve, the refined PDF file is a standard vector/raster PDF. The caveat being that the refine process may be set to PDF 1.3, so depending on variables in transparency, images may be broken into "atomic regions" which complicates the process.

Generally the Prinergy refine process using the 6 or 7 colour profile for the Spotless printing condition is intended as a hands off, late binding "lights out prepress" operation.


Stephen

 

[meddington]

Generally the Prinergy refine process using the 6 or 7 colour profile for the Spotless printing condition is intended as a hands off, late binding "lights out prepress" operation.

This would be an ICC conversion rather than any proprietary method, would that be correct. If it's using an ICC conversion, than a cmyk->cmyk++ conversion is intending to match the original CieLab values of the raster image, which wouldn't necessarily take advantage of the larger gamut. As such I would fail to see any true advantage for cmyk imagery. I also understood that raster conversions were handles by the Prinergy workflow rather than Spotless itself?

 

[Stephen Marsh]

This would be an ICC conversion rather than any proprietary method, would that be correct. If it's using an ICC conversion, than a cmyk->cmyk++ conversion is intending to match the original CieLab values of the raster image, which wouldn't necessarily take advantage of the larger gamut. As such I would fail to see any true advantage for cmyk imagery. I also understood that raster conversions were handles by the Prinergy workflow rather than Spotless itself?

We don't sell or support Spotless, one of our proofing customers just happens to use it, so I don't have any training or deep product knowledge. I am learning as I go!

The Prinergy refine process uses A CMYK++/+ profile for refining incoming CMYK+ files (I don't recall if it is an ICC or DeviceLink).

All the conversion is attempting to do is reproduce the original colour as close as possible, using the different ink set used by the Spotless implementation. So if an original used CMYK+485, then the conversion to CMYKOG or whatever inks were being used would attempt to reproduce the input colour as closely as possible (the red may use MYO, where as the original used only 485). If the source image was only CMYK and the destination ink set used CMYK, then I believe that there would be no addition of spot inks into the images.

AFAIK it is not about expanding the gamut - it is about matching/coming close to the original colour using different "standard" inks. If the larger gamut is in the source file and it is possible to be reproduced in the destination file, then the larger gamut will be retained.

The raster and vector conversions both appear to be handled by the Prinergy workflow. From what I understand, the CMYK+++ colour profile is created as part of the Spotless setup/implementation for the chosen ink set. I misunderstood how deeply Spotless was tied into Prinergy (it is not directly tied in at all from what I now gather). ColorFlow is a separate program, however it is tied into Prinergy, I mistakenly believed that Spotless was similar in it's behaviour.

I am presuming that the Prinergy CMYK+++ profile delivers the same CMYK+++ colour build to vector and raster elements as what the original Spotless recipe called for, however the build may be different - as long as the end colour is the same.

With luck Gordo can clarify.


Stephen Marsh

 

[gordo]

I should invoice Kodak for marketing support ;-P

Prinergy is a workflow that can use CMYK, CMYKX, CMYKXX, or CMYKXXX profiles made using its own profile creation software or other vendor's profiles. RGB raster images go in and get converted automagically by the appropriate profile. The profile defines the quality of the conversion. If you want to manually fiddle with an image using an extended process color profile then you have to use an appropriate authoring software to do that and preseparate the image. I don't know if Kodak still sells its own software to do that manual process.

Spotless is an optional software module that replaces named spot colors with a process or extended process ink set (4C, 5C, 6C, or 7C). It simulates the named colors using screen tint builds that are applied during the refine process. During the implementation of Spotless at the customer site an ICC profile is created that reflects the customer's print condition. That profile is used to drive the customer's proofer. It is also the input for Spotless to create the screen tint build look up table that will be used to simulate named colors.

The main value, benefit, and ROI for a printshop to run an extended process ink set is to replace spot colors with screen tint builds - hence Spotless. In the real world there is very little value in using an extended process ink set to add impact to raster images. The cost/benefit economics just don't make sense. However, that being said, if a printshop happens to be running an extended process ink set to replace named spot colors, then the option is there to use those colors to add impact to raster images. Since they've already got the inks on press then the cost/benefit economics now make sense. All you need is an appropriate separation file which Prinergy will use to separate incoming RGB raster images.

As a general observation when I worked at Creo/Kodak, the bulk of printers using Spotless did not use those extra colors to enhance raster images. They just used standard CMYK images, mostly because standard CMYK images look "natural." Where you'll usually see raster images printed with more than CMYK is in toy and candy packaging, children's books, and art reproductions. In most cases that I've seen, including shops that have Esko, the separations for extended process raster images are done manually by artistes using PhotoShop.

Hope that clarifies the process.

best, gordo

 

[meddington]

If there is no increased gamut gained upon converting from cmyk to cmyk++, than you really only added complexity to the printing process.