Help!! I know nothing about printing

[Lsmith3280]

I am an art designer/writer and have printed on Xerox 7700DN, small stuff.
My business is adding clientel to the point that I am now laying out a couple of magazines. I am designing and preparing for press magazines which are anywhere from 12 pages to 32 page books (8-1/2 x 11 pages). The number of copies for each book would be 5,000 to 40,000 at this point. I have many small orders also for menus, flyers, etc.
If I purchase a digital press (don't know which one) will it be cost effective? Where is the cut off point where it would need to go to web offset? I am going to buy a digital to enhance the small runs, but; if I can purchase something that can handle 30,000 copy runs (which will not be monthly at this point), and cost effective, then I will do it. The publisher wants to within a year print 1 magazine a week.
I don't want to throw away money.
Is there a small 4 color offset I can get (like a starter?)....

I would also need it to saddle stitch and fold...Need a finisher. Was looking at the Xerox DC 240, 250. There is also the Xerox 6060 and 2045/2060. I'm looking for Magazine quality and need a machine with at least at 1200 x 1200 dpi resolution. The Xerox 7700DN is 600 dpi and I definitely need better quality than that.
Please Any help would be great. I am getting more confused as the days go on.
I really need some solid advice on what to do. I would like to expand the business by offering small volume magazine/newsletter printing. But, if they can get it for cheaper outsourcing, then I don't know.

I have learned many different fields and know I will not have a problem dealing with the technical/service end of printing.

Like I said....HELP!
Any advice would be great!
Lisa

 

[random]

If you want a magazine type finish avoid 2060,5000,6060,8000 or anything that says they have fuser oil. I understand the smaller office machines like the 252 don't use oil so will give you more of a litho look but the back to back registration on these is pretty poor. Aparently the new model 700 is much better and will give you the matt litho look.

Alternatively you can go for a Konica Minolta c6500. 'We (Konica Minolta)' have two saddle stich booklet makers one will staple 20 imposed sheets (80 pages) or 50 sheets (200 pages) the latter will accept SRA3 and trim also. I have a customer who has the former and he is printing magazines that he sells in book stores for a niche market. We also have a perfect binder that actually works.

Don't let the pied piper lead you down the resolution path. Your 7700dn uses LED technology where as any production printers worth there salt use laser so immediatly the dot size (quite large on the 7700 I would imagine) is much smaller. The c6500 is 600x600 but our output is easily as good if not better than 2400 offerings from our compeditors.

Someone called Craig will be posting shortly with a rebuttal where he will make wild accusations about the c6500 when he does not own or use one. This is fallout from a bad experience from another manufactuer and he tars everyone except Xerox with the same brush.

I suggets you look for your local Canon, KM and xerox dealer. Take your files in and test them on a variety of stocks and obviously in your case check the finishing capabiliites. You want to look at the Canon 6000, Konica Minolta c6500 and Xerox 7000.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[Lsmith3280]

I originally starting looking into KM models, but stopped, because I contacted xerox. Thought I was narrowing it down, but the more I told them I needed, the more the price went up. I researched a little to learn exactly which models with xerox would work, only to find out that their lease program would cost 12,000 per month and was only good for 100,000 clicks, which for me meant that I would be charged 0.79 per click. Do the math. There is no way I can charge a customer that amount. So, I started looking to purchase only. But, I will look into the KM models and the Canon model also. So I thank you. If ever you need any layout, design, writing, editing, film editing, or web design done, please don't hesitate to contact me. I'll set it up anyway you want....It's easy. I've been doing design and editing, etc. for over 20 years.
Again, thank you.
Lisa

 

[random]

Xerox have been around since the Arc and have fine tuned there contracts so you are with them for life. Even if you want to get out and a compeditor decides to pay you out Xerox will pull out all sorts of fine print to make it uneconomical at any level like proposed loss of revenue not just the lease pay out etc etc. So if you go Xerox make sure you are happy.

I assume you stopped looking at KM after your Xerox phone call because they 'warned' you of the KM's crap machines, support and inexperience in this area. I know this because I here it from prospects that come to see us all the time. This is obviously not true.

The c6500 is at a price point that allows you to get started without breaking the bank, I have heard that the 700 is a cheaper (cost not manufactuer) engine but when it comes to finishing the tables will tip. We are very strong in finishing options for the c6500 and the compeditors are playing catchup.

BUT!! I don't want to sway you. Please test each machine look at the figures, look at the output and DON'T listen to the BS. Salesmen are full of it who ever they work for.

Most importantly come back and tell us what you think, it would nice to have an unbiased view in the forum.

 

[lfelton]

Hi Lisa - sorry I don't have much time to write right now, but the bottom line is that you will not be cost effective on digital for these run lengths. A subbed out completely finished & top quality job will cost less than your click charges. The best advice is to speak to a few commercial printers, they will bite your arm off in the current climate. Litho presses and FST lines are big bucks - we have an upgrade to our FST happening next week which is costing much more than the average digital press.

Let me know if you need any more specifics... gotta go

 

[Lsmith3280]

that's the conclusion I am getting at also. I would love to get into the printing industry and thought that digital press would be a nice transition; but, as I add up the cost of digital printing and the prices offered out there, I don't think I will come out ahead. Any other ideas? Like I said, I'm stubborn and really want to get into printing.

 

[lfelton]

We're a commercial printer with sheet fed litho and digital and do a fair bit of magazine / brochure work. We generally put a brochure onto a press at any run length over 300 copies. The exception is if course variable data work. I doubt whether you would find any commercial printers would say much different, except if they had old presses (where the cross over would be higher). We're competitive on price on up to around 20-30K copies, but over that you probably need to be putting it onto a web, or a big perfector with cut star.

On the numbers for litho, you are talking about over $1.5M to equip a small factory with a good 5-colour B2, FST line and ancillary required bits and pieces. Realistically you would probably need an analox coater tower, which would push it up to around $2M, plus high voltage power. After that, you would need a skilled workforce of around 6 production staff to run this kit single shift and a big budget for maintenance. Bear in mind that after this you will still be "baby" size compared with most of your competitors (not that that means you can't compete with them, just not on all jobs). We run our presses all day every day in order to make the bank and our shareholders happy. You would have to too...

One thing for you to think about: what you do have is an opportunity manage this print for your customer and potentially grow that into a decent revenue stream for your company without major capital investment.

If you pick the above apart, I hope it gives you a little insight into where digital is useful for magazine printing.

 

[Lsmith3280]

Is there absolutely any way to do a transitional phase into printing? Without paying 2M to start? I know I would be able to do low runs on digital printers, small newsletters, etc. I guess I need a partner for the larger press runs. Any suggestions? Any printing brokers out there that would be willing to work with my publishers? But, I still want to know which digital printers would be the best for my firm, high quality, full bleeds, and finishers and are Mac compatible.

 

[billhasty]

lisa get yourself a ryobi 3304 DI with a PDS color system yup it's a 250 thousand dollar press that only runs a 12x18 sheet but you get great color and same color from about 200 sheets on. waterless ink, no roller marks like with a crestline at 7" because of the plate gap. lisa better yet we can do anything you need write me back at wbult2last @aol.com and i can set you up with a world wide network and shipping and the best pressman on the east coast, me! you don't need a partner you need a print shop, we have about 30 designers and venders that use us so write me and i'll get you contact to me owner

 

[Lsmith3280]

hey billnasty, really not called for. Asking for advise and don't need to be IMed in that manner. Just so you know, I have been looking at the "big boys"...
So, please. I want to get a machine that will do what I want, at the lowest cost, highest quality. The technologies are changing quickly (just like the computers did and still are).
And considering the economy at this point in time....I need to fill the need at as low cost to my customers as possible... You kinda lost a potential customer. Especially when dealing with McDonalds, Tyson, National Geographic. Sorry.

 

[Josh]

Hi Lisa,

I think your best bet for the long runs is to simply buy them in, you're simply not going to be able to pay for a B2 set-up with just 1 or 2 magazines.

As for Digital, both Xerox and Konica Minolta both provide entry level products... Xerox the DC250 family and KM the 6500e. If your volumes won't be increasing over time (or atleast for the period of the lease) then the 6500 is probably slightly better. If you're going to need to upgrade in say a year then Xerox are probably a better bet as they have an upgrade path... Dc5000, 7000, 8000 etc. KM will probably say you can have 2 or more 6500s running in parallel, I suppose if you have endless space and an operator who doesn't mind running between several machines this is another option!

Hope that helps a bit!

 

[[email protected]]

Lisa, Just a thought. You may be able to buy into a well equipped printer in your area. It sounds like you have a lot to bring to the table. The money you might be prepred to invest in a transitional digital soloution might get you a good share in a firm that has allready "been there done that".
I own a printing company, but I'm at the other end of the country!

 

[rbailleu]

well you have been getting advise from a bunch of different angles. I have to say farm out the big work for the first year. once you know your financials from all this work you will have a better idea on what you can afford. You can buy a 2 color ryobi, komori, heidelberg to run the little work. maybe even a small 4 color like a pm52 or 3304. don't jump in to buying so much hardware fast, you could be out of work in 6 months. growth is a killer if you can't stay on top of it. the big boys doing trade work are working on 5% margins do you think you can be 95% efficient in the first year? I would doubt you could do the work must faster as a startup. you could certainly match the quality. you really have to decide which way will keep you in the good graces of your customers and have the least risk. If you're going to lose customers based on super quick turn around and quality are they willing to pay more. If so start shopping. good luck.

 

[Lsmith3280]

I have been looking for the C6500, and found a C6800 with saddlestitch finisher. Is that good? Don't want to make a mistake when buying something for small runs.... Any help would be great.

 

[random]

no such thing as a 6800 but if you are talking about a 6500 with saddlestitch you will have to tell me what model saddlestitch they are trying to sell you. If it FS finisher I don't think it would be up to what you propose if it is a SD finisher then it is well capable. The SD finisher is about twice the size of the c6500 (length).

 

[Lsmith3280]

This is what I found pertaining to C6800....
Go to this link. It is on ebay; and of course don't worry, they are in brooklyn and I will go there and inspect it....etc.

They are listing it as a C6800...

Here is the link:
Canon imageRunner C6800 - GPR-14 - 267,000 COPIES - eBay (item 180297287496 end time Oct-17-08 14:08:15 PDT)

Let me know. Thanks.

 

[Lsmith3280]

By the way, which konica models would be good?

 

[random]

Konica don't have anything in that price range that will any good fo you.

 

[Craig]

Lisa,
I have read through the comments and request for quality, and looked at the link to e-bay you provided. They don't add up. You are wanting press quality, a robust machine, but are only interested in an office copier. I understand and agree with the reasoning behind Xerox's proposals going up based on your requests, you can't take a fast plastic box and make it a production printer. Xerox should not sell you something cheap knowing that you have intentions of running it beyond it's capacity, just bad business for them and you will not be happy in the end.

I agree with the posters who are telling you to farm things out for a year or so, until you have the capital to invest in the proper equipment. No way shape or form will you be able to print magazines in any quantity, cost effectively on digital equipment, leave that to offset. The machines are too slow and the production costs are too high.

 

[margadri]

Lisa, the bottom point is you should listen to the people who suggested you to forget digital and go offset. It is too expensive to print digital for more than 500 runs let alone the 30,000 you are talking about.
You can call all the brands and the numbers, none is good for what you need.
This industry is not for experimenting. Too easy to waste lots of money.
Find a good printer who also has digital. See for yourself the difference in costs he will offer you. You seem young, you don't want to get stuck with debts.
Good luck