Is Digital Right for Me?

[mojoprime]

+1 dabob. i've been looking at this trying to figure out what didn't look right, and our 700 has the same deal -- two sets would be needed, hope that the registration is tight and then stitch and trim offline.

 

[AP90]

Thanks for the input guys. Dabob is right, it would be 18 sheets per book. And the 1000 is rated to run at 100ppm. So therefore my output would be 160 ppm if it only runs at 80%. But I thought the big kicker with the 1000 is it doesn't slow down regardless. Which if we put the new numbers in my biggest book will require 8 hours per machine, not 32. Also, the saddle stitcher that comes with the 1000 is rated for 25 sheets, which is a 100 page magazine.

 

[dabob]

Thanks for the input guys. Dabob is right, it would be 18 sheets per book. And the 1000 is rated to run at 100ppm. So therefore my output would be 160 ppm if it only runs at 80%. But I thought the big kicker with the 1000 is it doesn't slow down regardless. Which if we put the new numbers in my biggest book will require 8 hours per machine, not 32. Also, the saddle stitcher that comes with the 1000 is rated for 25 sheets, which is a 100 page magazine.

I would get a demo on that stitcher and folder to see how it works on the actual stock for more than just 25 books more like 150-200 books . . . not that I don't trust Salespeople . . . I believe in trust and VERIFY because I have never met a salesperson that undersold their product . . .

 

[JustinB]

You're already falling prey to the sales pitch of 100ppm. Go read the fine print.

http://www.xerox.com/digital-printing/latest/X80BR-01U.pdf

Page 16 has this:

Color 800/1000 Presses Productivity/
Print Speeds–AWM
• 80/100 ppm (8.5" x 11"/A4 letter), all weights 55–350 gsm (15 lb Bond to 130 lb Cover)
• 4800/6000 full process color A4 (letter) 4/0 impressions per hour
• 44/50 ppm (11" x 17"/A3–12" x 18"/SRA3), all weights 55–350 gsm (15 lb Bond to 130 lb Cover)
• 2400/3000 (11" x 17"/A3–12" x 18"/SRA3 tabloid) 4/0 impressions per hour and 4800/6800 (8.5" x 11"/A4) IMP

4/0 Means four colors (CMYK) on one side, and nothing (absolutely nothing) on the back.

It doesn't slow down for thickness (gsm) but it DOES slow down for size.

You're going to get 40 12x18's SIDES per minute. Not 100. Which means 20 complete sheets of paper per minute. Your first book is qty 4200 of 18 sheets of paper, so you'll be at roughly 4200 minutes, or 70 hours. Divide by 2 for 2 machines, and you're at 35 hours of both machines running simultaneously to print that job. If you work 8 hour days, you're at 4.5 days just to print. Grind for 12 hours a day and it's done in 3 days. Don't forget time to staple and three knife trim!

Don't get hosed by the sales people. ALL of them quote times for letter size sheets, and no one prints on letter sized sheets.

 

[Possumgal]

I don't know about the Xerox 1000, but I can tell you from the 700 that it DOES slow down if you're using the inline finisher. In fact, it used to start printing pages from the second booklet while it was folding and stapling the first booklet, but after a software update, the first booklet has to be completely finished before it starts on the second. Talk about slowing things down! And it stops to heat up or cool down the fuser when switching paper weights between the inside pages and cover.

See if you can find somebody with a similar machine to see how it handles the finishing time wise.

 

[AP90]

Well I had a short informal meeting with the reps this week. One thing they did address was speed. They were making sure anything they proposed did not slow the machine down any. So they are basically figuring that out. Also, they've been going back in forth with people higher up on click charges and service fees. They're fighting with the color click right now because some stuff I offer is spot color, so they re trying to get them to lower the color click based on a lot of it will only be 1 color and minimal usage. Secondly is the service contract. They're original quote included a $1700 a month service contract, and they told me outright that was outrageous. They have since been able to lower it. What is your guys' average service price a month that have bigger production presses? I heard it was ballpark $600-700?

 

[JustinB]

You're really aiming for that 2-sided 12 x 18 at 100 pages per minute aren't you? Good luck with that!

Spot color in the digital world can be different than spot color in the offset world. In offset, if you have a 6 color press, you can load, say, orange or green (or whatever color) ink in that 5th or 6th unit and literally only put that color down.

In Digital, unless your spot is only cyan, or only yellow, or only magenta, then you're going to be putting down all 4 colors in order to achieve that "spot" color. For example: Black with green is not single color (black) + spot color. Digital presses don't have green toner. They have yellow and cyan, which combined, make green.

Make sense?

 

[JustinB]

I forgot to mention that on my contract, I only pay for the clicks I use.

If I use 50,000 clicks, I pay for 50,000.
If I use 10,000, I pay for 10,000.

No service charge
No monthly fee
No monthly minimum
Nothng.

If I shut down my machine and hibernated to the south for a month, my bill would be zero.

Are they wanting to charge you $1700 a month PLUS a click charge?

 

[AP90]

No service charge
No monthly fee
No monthly minimum
Nothng.

If I shut down my machine and hibernated to the south for a month, my bill would be zero.

Are they wanting to charge you $1700 a month PLUS a click charge?

Yes that was the original proposal. But they have since brought it down.

I'm not stuck on 100 ppm or anything. We have discussed options for leaving those publications out and machines for my other ones. We're far from any type of final proposals and counter offers at this point. It's still in the pre planning part on both sides.

And I understand what your saying about the spot color. I was just using that term as it's what I know. Basically they're trying to get the click down because some color I use is very little coverage.