JetPlate

[InkjetCTP_waste_of_money]

More about these Inkjet CTP systems

More about these Inkjet CTP systems

G&J will provide what ever you need, but you should go through a dealer to help the process along. The technology is the same, however if you look at the 2 machines and how the jobs are processed not to mention the extra care G&J have gone though to make sure you have good registration. Registration? They both use a rear entry platen with a registraion bar, the Epson machine pulls the plate in. Neither company has done anything to better this, your registration will be as good as your load on the platen table With G&J being a global manufacturer of many products in our industry I have more faith in the product line as well as support for the product. I agree with this statement, more resources to handle troublesome systems.

Again, G&J are not set up to sell direct to customers so when you request information you may not be talking to the right individual.

Yes they are setup to sell direct, all you have to do is call and ask for sales, both companies JetPlate and G&J have the same people from the orignal failed company Pieces out of the north east somewhere. They all know each other and all have the same experience in the business. I do believe the JetPlate system prints better as demonstrated by the press sheet designed by one of their techs, although they havent changed it for a few years now. Dont know why unless you stick with something that works. The press sheet tells all!

 

[InkjetCTP_waste_of_money]

Question from "Internal_R&D_Analyst" . "How many manufacturers and vendors are there for the iCtP plates? As iCtP mentions JetPlate has to use the Kodak Craftsman, and only that plate. This is incorrect, although the main plate is the Kodak Crafstman ELite to be exact, they are close to having, the AGFA N555 plate and the IBF 2000 plate ready to distribute. The conventional chemistry to develop these plates will also work. However it is still a flawed process, and the AGFA/IBF plate has a silicon ploymer or something of the sorts that is preventing the quality from being the same as the KPG plate. Are their multiple sources for the iCtP system?"

Glunz & Jensen already have partnerships with many of the large plate manufacturers, as they already make and brand processors for them. They chose the route to make plates under license. I do not know about this, my best guess would be DotWorks as their main manufacturer but I am not sure of that. DotWorks was involved in the older Pieces company. I would find out about the 2 manufactures and check on them else you are not doing your homework.

Therefore, currently there are two different manufacturing suppliers/sources currently for iCtP plates. By June 09, it is expected this will rise to 3, to cope with the global supply and demand of the plates. However, other than they type of cardboard box they are packed in, it is not possible to identify the source. As they are made under license all plates are to the same spec, and behave the same.

The reason for this, is that unlike single source suppliers, IF one supplier stopped making the plate, given there are multiple suppliers; the channel would not be affected while Glunz & Jensen transferred the manufacturer that ceased, to another supplier. Given that Glunz &Jensen are a global supplier my understanding is there will always be a minimum 2 suppliers at any one time.

Having said all this, generally the real question is not how many suppliers are ther, but more "can I get them from anywhere else". Well actually, you don't buy them from Glunz & Jensen direct anyway. Like Afgfa or Kodak plates, they come from your local dealer. And any local dealer that sells Glunz & Jensen iCtP systems has the rights to buy, distribute or hold stocks. Although I think if you have asked a dealer to put the effort in supplying and supporting a CtP system for you, unless there is a huge difference in prices, or they simply can't supply then I think there is a lot to be said for continuity of supply.

Therefore, currently there are two different manufacturing suppliers/sources currently for iCtP plates. By June 09, it is expected this will rise to 3, to cope with the global supply and demand of the plates. However, other than they type of cardboard box they are packed in, it is not possible to identify the source. As they are made under license all plates are to the same spec, and behave the same.

The reason for this, is that unlike single source suppliers, IF one supplier stopped making the plate, given there are multiple suppliers; the channel would not be affected while Glunz & Jensen transferred the manufacturer that ceased, to another supplier. Given that Glunz &Jensen are a global supplier my understanding is there will always be a minimum 2 suppliers at any one time.

Having said all this, generally the real question is not how many suppliers are ther, but more "can I get them from anywhere else". Well actually, you don't buy them from Glunz & Jensen direct anyway. Like Afgfa or Kodak plates, they come from your local dealer. And any local dealer that sells Glunz & Jensen iCtP systems has the rights to buy, distribute or hold stocks. Although I think if you have asked a dealer to put the effort in supplying and supporting a CtP system for you, unless there is a huge difference in prices, or they simply can't supply then I think there is a lot to be said for continuity of supply.[/QUOTE]

 

[DonBlock]

WOW!!!! Well, you really have your issues with this product line. It's a shame that you lump all the manufacturers together.

As I stated before:

The facts are simple..
Does it have the quality or the speed of a laser system - No!
Have the G&J made the claim that it is better - Again No!
Does it have a market - Unequivocally Yes!

G&J has worked extensively with Epson and Epson fully supports the iCTP product line, which is not covered up to look like anything but what it is. The inks and cartridges are authorized by and come from Epson.

As for clogged heads, there has not been one report of a clogged head on the iCTP (Epson version) to date. It will probably happen, but I suppose the color ink cartridges never clog.................

The Epson product has been modified for many years by other manufacturers for various printing applications. Different material from foam to toilet seats.

It is obvious that you have had some serious issues with this flavor of product, but just because one company failed does not mean that the process is bad.

Pick you product bases off of your needs. If it meets you intended purpose, you have made a good decision. If it exceeds your needs, even better. If you have unrealistic expectations, then nothing can be done to help you.

One last thing. Hopefully all who read that thread will look at a product that makes sense for them and not make a decision based off of one persons bad experience.

Good luck to all and to all a good night..........

 

[iCtP]

Assumtions can some times be incorrect.

Assumtions can some times be incorrect.

ICTP Posted -And likewise, "InkjetCTP_waste_of_money" my ( iCtP's) responses to your comments are now in red.

But, first let me state, you have made some assumptions here as you do not fully know the product. I AM a R&D representative from Glunz & Jensen, I do know the product, so I would like to shed some detail on your statements.

The G&J system, is faster than the speed you quote, IF YOU ARE PRINTING A 13X19 INCH PLATE AT 1440X1440 RES WITH AT LEAST 30% COVERAGE YOUR PRINT WILL TAKE 15 MINUTES X 4 = 4 PLATES PER HOUR,
[iCtP] Incorrect, at 1440 x 1440 it will take 8mins 15secs upto 8mins 45sec depending if you have full bleed and cut marks.
720X720 WILL TAKE 6 MINUTES PER PLATE,
[iCtP] We do not receomend the 720 x720 dpi mode, we know Jetplat do, but we RIP in higher resolutions for the sake of text, and we find the machine creates uneven tints due to the lack of consequtive passes with the lower resolution so whilst it exists, we do not set it up as a standard mode, and we don't recommend it.
2880 RESOLUTION WILL TAKE 25 MINUTES PER PLATE, WHAT PART DO YOU NOT AGREE WITH?
[iCtP] You refer to Jetplate, NOT the Glunz & Jensen PlateWriters, AS I SAID,G&J have custom Epson firmware, they interweave two chanels and run at twice the speed + some. The same plate at 2880 x 2880 dpi will take under 10 mins, at at 1440 x 1440 we run in single channel at 2880 x 2880 we run in interweaved channel and so double the reolution without significant impact on speed. Using a cusomtised random wave interweave through the two channels.

(unless you refer to the 1st generation G&J system, now discontinued) Discontinued because the roland machine was not capable of producing a quality output along with the head and mechanical issues. ..
[iCtP] Discontnued as the new Epson offered collaboratin with Epson themselves and higher quality.

And it is not exactly the same as the Jetplate despite the fact that it appears to be based on the same engine. SAME RIP FROM HARLEQUIN, SAME PLUGIN FROM XITRON,
[iCtP] Now, you really start to make assumptions, but I am afraid they are ttotally incorrect in thsi case.
Not Same RIP, yes its Harlequin, but as I understand it Jetplate use the proofing version of the RIP which Harlequin resolution restrict to 720x720 dpi RIpping, then you interpolate up for a higher res output.
Glunz & Jensen, use a FULL unrestricted Harlequin RIP and can RIP at any resolution upto 3600dpi..
SAME XITRON DEVELOPER (WHICH IS NOW RETIRED), SAME MACHINE,
[iCtP] No, I know to who you refer, and you are again incorrect. This RIP plugin was developed specifically for G&J by a Harlequin. G&J own the rights, and constantly develop it, it is VERY VERY different from the generic Xitron plugin that you refer to.
SAME SPEED AT THE SAME RESOLUTIONS, OF COURSE JETPLATE PRINTS THE 720X720 RESOLUTION WHICH WILL PRODUCE BETTER COLOR REPRODUCTION THAN YOUR 1440X1440 DUE TO THE TYPE OF PRESSES THESE PLATES ARE BEING RUN ON
[iCtP] Wrong again, infact it some cases speed of the Ripping is SLOWER, on the Glunz & Jensen system, as it rips at higher resolutions, and as for your comment on resolution. Again you are incorrect.

It is supported through Epson with its own Epson based firmware, and it offers 2880dpi though two interweoven channels. IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BIDIRECTIONAL PRINTING OR DUAL CMYK MODE PRINTING AT THAT RESOLUTION THE MACHINE DOES NOT SUPPORT IT
[iCtP] This is what I mean about assumptions. If we were (Gluzn & Jensen) an Epon Ressel, and purchased off the shelf Epsons you may have been right. But we are not. We ahve an extensive collaboration agreement, and we are Epson intergrators. This means we ahve different commerical agreements, and technology partnerships. Including customised firmware, and we use Genuine Epson carts. As such, while you are right when you say the Epson can't do that, you are wrong when you make the assumption that a Glunz & Jensen PlateWriter can't. You are assuming both machines the Jetplate and the PalteWriter are the same, and they and the RIP are quite different.
(Which is its standard mode), as well as the others WHAT OTHER DIFFERENCES? OTHER THAN YOUR FLUID AND A PROCESSOR......
[iCtP] Come and see one in the flesh. Rather than make assumptions
It uses an advanced remote support technology allowing G&J support staff and dealers to remotely help you. WEBEX? GOTOASSIST? RDP? LOGMEIN? IT IS NOT A PART OF YOUR RIP SYSTEM, ALL XP OPERATING SYSTEMS HAVE THIS CAPABILITY IT ISNT ANYTHING SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR YOUR SYSTEM, STOP TRYING TO CONVINCE THESE PEOPLE THAT ANY OF THESE COMPANIES HAVE SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED PROCESSES IN PLACE TO ENHANCE SUPPORT, NONE OF THESE COMPANIES SPEND THE MONEY TO DO THIS DUE TO THE LACK OF PROFITS THIS TECHNOLOGY IS IS PRODUCING.
[iCtP] Wrong again in part, but there is some truth in your statement. We have remote RS232 connections between teh PalteWriter,a dn the finishing unit. We measure voltages, current drain temperature speed of imaging / belts.. all developments that were made for our highend processors and as we use the same interface boards, we adapt the same technology for negligible expense. So, prehaps its you that needs conviencing, our dealers know this. Seeing remotely if the current drain is high, helps a tech determin if there is a plate jam, or depending on the circuit that responds with a high current drian, it may be a bulb in the finishing units...But, when we refer to RIP support, our guys do use Logmein, but will switch to one of the others of the user prefers.


The machines are all 80% similar, Yes the G&J system looks better, Yes (by now) it should run and perform better, G&J is a great company, and if I was forced to buy any of the systems I would want the larger company supporting me since the resources are there. With this said...
[iCtP] Okay, I won't disagree or tell you are wrong with the last bit
I still would NOT get myself into tany of these systems.

 

[iCtP]

Glunz & Jensen already have partnerships with many of the large plate manufacturers, as they already make and brand processors for them. They chose the route to make plates under license. I do not know about this, my best guess would be DotWorks as their main manufacturer but I am not sure of that. DotWorks was involved in the older Pieces company. I would find out about the 2 manufactures and check on them else you are not doing your homework.

[iCtP] Your best guess I am afriad to say is incorrect, although we do use Dot works occasionally to convert plates, where customers have order sizes we do not have,a nd where we do not what to let them down. At anyone time we hold, circa 250,000 - 500,000 sq ft in stock on the shelf. With manufacting productions twice a month.

 

[iCtP]

Hello InkjetCTP_waste_of_money.

My profile does state I work for Glunz & Jensen, &my nickname being iCtP hardly disguises that either.
However, I am not in sales, otherwise I may have the sense not to answer this.. But, as I come from R&D and Support I will dive right in...

The reason for this, is that your post is great from my perspective. I think you have covered many salient points that are weaknesses we saw many JetPlate customers struggle with these, & I think if the truth be told we made some of those errors 4 years ago ourselves. But, when we set out to launch the second generation we were given a design spec, a wish list if you like... & reading your post, makes me smile as it is almost exactly the design spec we were set out to solve.

Therefore, although I doubt I can convince you otherwise, but I would like to correct some of the assumptions you have made, which may be based on alternative vendors or past technology but I fear is less accurate today in relation to Glunz & Jensen systems. However, I also think you raise some excellent points.
Therefore; InkjetCTP_waste_of_moneywrote

After 1-3 months you WILL get a head clog.
[iCtP] You may do with some systems, but this was a key design area for G&J when developing their 2nd gen machines. Cleaning fluids run in the 6 unused channels, & we have not changed a single print head in the last 18 months. IN ANY of our 2nd generation PlateWriter 2000, or 2400 systems. This is fact not fiction.

You WILL spend on average over $10.00 per plate over the life of the system until you sell it or trash it. (Keep a log)
[iCtP] I have heard similar from users of alternative systems, & indeed I think in the early days G&J had similar issues, we replaced FOC many consumbles for customers to make sure we delivered what we said we could do. We resolved that problem, although we recognise alternative vendors still struggle.When we set out to deliver the second generation we were concious of the bills we incurred in the early days for FOC consumables.
However, this is a relevant point & whilst we at G&J may be a larger more established company which needs to deliver on promises - there are less scrupuless companies outthere, so I think the idea of keeping a log is a good idea. Note: the running costs of a G&J PlateWriter, are calulated using the real amount of ink depleted by the CHIP on the side of the cart, plus the cost of maintenance.

You will need to change the channel to one of the other colors which will cost you about half of a new $200-$400 cartridge.
[iCtP] I can see from this, you refer to Jetplate . You will not fail the channels on the Glunz & Jensen PlateWrtier2000 or 24000. AND the reason I know you refer to Jetplate is that you could not change channels on PW2000/2400 system from G&J as the firmware is custom developed, & only fires from channels 1 & 2 on the PW2000. It is not necessary to implement the ability to switch channels on G&J systems. therefore no waste on the ink carts like you say..
You WILL waste 1 out of 4 plates (If your lucky) due to a print issue on the plate.
[iCtP] Well I am guessing that is a Jetplate issue too, & relates to the inability to print correctly if you have touched the plate before imaging, or smudges the wet image after imaging before it reaches the processor, or a problem in the processor, like on the scrub brush.
Wilth the G&J system, the image is dry when it has been printed, so you can't smudge or damage it, there is no processor, and no scrub brush. I think a G&J user would be unlucky to have this problem.

You will NOT get the posted number of impressions either of these companies are stating, more than 40% of the time.
[iCtP] Hmm another interesting statement. I think 50,000 impressions for the JetPlate or the first generation G&J systems does require a good clean press set up. But, when G&J moved to the second generation systems, they started using a much more robust diazo based ink carrier, which they quote 50,000 for, and in my opinion you would have to be doing someting real bad not to acheive this, we have reports upto 300,000. And G&J now has OEM's branding thier iCtP systems, some running over pressure presses and such like... these OEM had tested and spect their derivates at 75,000. So, I certainly think purchasers of a system should check this out, and if necessary ask the supply to make a live set of paltes for a long run and test. But, I doubt a series 2 G&J PlateWriter running the blue ink would struggle, we have number of customers that run 10,000 per month, gum and store then rerun next month, some have done this for over a year with no issues.
You will NOT be happy after 3 months with these very troublesome systems.
[iCtP] Again, looks like a Jetplate time frame, most of the testimonials on our website for that reason are installs that are over 6 months established or in some cases 12 months. We had an article published recently I saw, where unknown to us, QuickPrinter visited one of our 2 year old customers and wrote about his experience.When the Glunz & Jensen PlateWriter 2000 & 2400 were developed we were looking to deliver these systems with varying warranty options to put peoples mind at rest in this area.
And from time to time we run promotions with a 2 year warranty inc. However, when those promotions are not running users can still opt to purchase them for piece of mind. The Jetplate legacy, and to some degree some of our first systems 4 years ago did create some issues, we spent alot on money correcting our issues, I know that others did not do the same, but please understand G&J is all about listening to the feedback and improving on it, so I fear you may be unfair with some of your passionate statements here and you may be aligning us too closely with Jetplate when we have made some very concious efforts not to deliver the issues they saw.
.......

These companies rely on Epson to improve their machines and then simply adapt shrouds, covers, etc to try to hide the true machine under the covers. Epson will NOT support these machines unless the Epson techs are LIED to; as soon as they find out you sent a metal plate through the machine the warranty is VOIDED,
[iCtP] Okay, now I know you have not had a G&J PlateWriter. We do not supply an Epson printer, we do not supply an Epson warranty, and G&J will NEVER ask you to call Epson.
We supply a Glunz & Jensen PlateWriter. We are Epson Integrators, and this is a clafication that sits inbetween OEM and Reseller. It means we do not buy off the shelf product, but we do buy part built product with small modifications like firmware ect and we build the rest in. Under this status this is considered the same as purchasing a subasembly and as such the manufacturere (G&J) is responsible for the warranty.
I would like to think your engine if you did purchase a PlateWriter would not fail inside the warranty period, but if it did then; either the dealership that supplied the system will come to service it, OR G&J will provide a SWAPOUT engine and simply replace the main engine. When we designed the 2nd generation systems, another key objective, was "the platewriter should not fail. BUT, if it does it must be up and running again ASAP". So, other than an extensive self maintenance system, the PW200 is a no tool dissasembly, front and rear tables click back, ink dryer lifts off, and the user lifts out the Imaging engine, we overnight a replacement, (charged with liquid dot so there is not cost implication), and the user repalces it... we pick up the defective unit. BUT let me say, this has only been invoked 3 times this year so far, so these things are working as G&J built them. However, I do think your point to readers is important. IF you are not considering a G&J system, watchout for the warranty. If you are told it is an Epson waranty and you don't use Espon Ink or you put plates through.. you may not have a warranty.
....

Fellow Printers - If after reading this you are still wondering how "good" these systems are, do yourself at least this, check out the systems and do extensive research on them ....

- Ask to see a LIVE demonstration, either a trade show, bring the machine to you (At their cost), or fly you and your best pre-press employee to their demo center. This will allow you to see the machine in action first hand;Speed, quality, operation.
[iCtP] I think this is good advice. But I would add, given this posters clearly bad experince at some suppliers hands, try and ensure the site you visit is not a new installation, 3 months - 6 months + G&J would be happy to point you towards such customers.

- Ask for complete price lists for ALL consumeables, and about the availability of said consumeables, do not count on their word. Check out these suppliers for yourself. The only Kodak dealer is notorious for selling plates that are not even plates that work with these systems since... As for "RUSH" costs... figure on doubling your costs! Best practice, buy enough so that you do not run out and you can pay ground shipping prices, at least these prices are somewhat reasonable.
[iCtP] Okay, I guess you are back on the Jetplae track, yeap they sell direct, and yeap virtually no one stocks their stuff. And the Kodak thing must be Jetpalte, as G&J don't use Kodak plates.
A thing to reliase here, G&J has installed over 100 units in the last 6 months or so, over 300 in just over the last year. There is a number of dealers that hold stock. BUT, Just with ANY CTP solution you are going to incurr high RUSH deliver costs if you express anything.

 

[iCtP]

Reply to InkjetCTP_waste of Money.. continued....

Reply to InkjetCTP_waste of Money.. continued....

......
Continued from last reply as my epic novel of a response would not post in one go...

4- Get print samples from these customers, especially the customers that have had the systems for 5-12 months. Ask for 4 color, Halftone (black and white) images with 4-6 pt text, gradients and tint screens. Pay for the shipping if you need to, this will be the best way of reaching your decision. Get as many samples and critique them as best you can.
[iCtP] Okay, and from a support point of view I would suggest this is key to making an informed decision. But I would go a little further. Making a CTP purchase is making a decision you will sit with for the next 3 - 5 years. Its a big buy. First ask for thier samples both press sheets and a set of plates to make them. These are always done with the images that are the most forgiving, sometimes this is to hide issues, othertimes it is becuase there is no knowing what knid of condition your press is in and how much dot gain it may have, so images are selected to be the most forgiving in these circumstances... Bottomline, if you don't like the manufaucturers (and this applies to us at G&J too), own plates. Then it is unlikely to be the right product for you. THEN, if you like thier sample plates, and I think this is KEY to making the correct decision, take the job you are running today on your own press with your own plates and send it to the manufacturer. Get them to give you back a set of plates that you can print and compare against what you JUST printed yourself. YOU MUST ask them to make plates from one of YOUR jobs. Before deciding. This should give a true representation of the system. We have seen many situations where customers have purchased systems from less scrupiless suppliers where they have used samples to mask issues, and this is not fair to you.. and from a suppliers point of view may end up giving you a false impression that you blame the manufacturer for.


5- TECH SUPPORT -TECH SUPPORT-TECH SUPPORT!!!! I cant stress this enough. I know one of these companies doesnt even have a technician working for them only sales people trying to be technicians. Ask about remote support, onsite support, service contracts and most of all a warranty!
[iCtP] Given that G&J are a large AAA rated company with 100,000's Plate processors in the field and an inkjet CTP base that is building, and a company that prides themselves upon support and puts alot of money into it, I have to agree with you here. It is hard for us to see people making mistakes and buying por product with no warranty and comparing it with us. Make sure you investagte the warranty, and if this posters' concerns rattle you then cover your concers, with a service contract to mitigate them. During the demo, if you do it at a customers sight, ask them about support. and how it is doen, and if they have EVER called an engineer out, how long it took where they hard down, how long did it take to get back up.

Ask these companies these questions and get their answers in writing;
- What happens if my printhead gets damaged?
[iCtP] With the G&J second generation PW2000 machines, you are covered under warranty.BUT for peice of mind, get it in writing. With other suppliers, this poster is correct... you may getr a mute response. Out of warranty you can purchase a service contract, or you can "wing it", knowing that with G&J like Sony playstations etc, G&J offer a FIXED price repair, IF your engine fails, then irrespective of the failure, they will ship a replacement engine, warranty that, and collect your old one on a overnight service.

- What happens if the cleaning assembly goes bad? The transport system, timeing rail, feed sensors, paper feed margin issues?
[iCtP] As above for G&J but check it out for other companies as their warranties are not so comprehesive
- What about the after market cartridges, since Epson does not sell them, are they
guaranteed to work? and how long will I be down when I run out of fluid?
[iCtP] When buying from a small supplier this is a sensible question, but as said earlier you really want to hold a spare set. G&J holds several hundred carts in stock at any one time. Local dealers also stock carts, but check if your local dealer does.. if not make sure you hold spares or know what the cost of an express shipment is.

- What happens if the cartridge I get does not work? The cartridges on these machines
contain dual layer useage chips on them. Epson has made them so they are not easily
reproduced. Most cartridges for the 4880/7880/9880 are coming from China; they have
about a 70% chance of working which means (more than likely) 1 out of the 8 will NOT
work, and you will be waiting for another cartridge at a minimum for 24 hours if you are
not planning ahead and run out of fluid.
[iCtP] He laughs... again this is not a Glunz & Jensen PlateWriter expereince you have. Our status as an Espon Intergrator prohibits us from using Chinese carts, in fact in testing we found them to be very unreliable and leak everywhere ....a real mess. We only use Genuine Epson carts. So, if you are purchasing a G&J system this would not apply.
- How do I know the technician any of these companies sends out knows the system? Most of your onsite techs will come
from local dealers around your area that have pretty muct the same training as you
received. They are not Epson Techs and more than likely will not solve your problem if it
is machine oriented, they will solve the same issues you will, print issues, calibrations,
feed problems, maintenance. As for the processor for one of these machines, well forget
it, there is no support for that machine from anyone at this pint unless you contact the
manufacturer which I believe is in Europe somewhere. And to the best of my knowledge they have NO technicians capable of fixing this machine.
[iCtP] I think this is an important point to check when considering any system, particularly if not from Glunz & Jensen, the practises you identify above are again those of Jetplate a presume? Glunz & Jenssen provides its own warranties, and as orignially stated, G&J train their dealers as serviced techs, but also run an engine exchange program. In many cases if it is identified as a machine issue, you may never see a service tech, just a swap engine. BUT; again we don't expereince the failure rate to which your expereince has tainted you...And Glunz & Jensen customers just for even further pice of mind, their "Engine Exchange" plan for users out of warranty which as I stated is FIXED price, provides a swapout/replacement engine at less than half the cost you indicate above.

Please understand I respect your comments, and I have heard similar ones from others. But, we are NOT all the same.

 

[InkjetCTP_waste_of_money]

More comments to hide the real issues from these Sales people

More comments to hide the real issues from these Sales people

As I stated G&J, considering the size of the company and the reputation for their plate processors, I would recommend your company, IF, this was the only solution. The fact is the price of used laser systems are more often than not less than your new system. Even if you have made advances, which I doubt, will still only get you at most 12 months of longevity. Considering most purchases will be 3-5 year financing, what do you tell them in 1.5-2 years????? I spoke with many unhappy G&J and Technova (PolyJet) customers at the trade shows also, many of which were on their way to inform you of their intention to return the system, so JetPlate isnt alone in that category. It just does'nt make sense in today's market to purchase this failed technology... Once again people stay away from it... You can send me a private message and I will speak directly to you about my experiences, as long as you are a potential buyer and not one of these company reps.

PS: I have read the .dat file in the plugin... unless you have had a new one in the lsat 12 months... I know this for a fact, You modification date/name is on the JP plugin also... Xitron may have charged you for new development but I assure you that they copied JetPlates plugin, at least initially.

I dont want to debate you on your companies reputation, I have friends that work with all of these companies, however due to my experiences in 10 years of working with these machines daily, I understand the heartaches these small printers WILL have with any of these systems. I still get emails today from unhappy customers.... Asking for help since they cant get help for the manufacturer.

PSS: I have turned a couple of people G&Js way due to the type of bundles they sell with printing equipment. Dont think I am against your company(s), only this technology. I challenge you to prove me wrong, any of these companies, then I will become an advocate.

 

[iCtP]

Debating your experiences..

Debating your experiences..

... I dont want to sound insulting, as this is not productive nor will it do anyone any good. I am simply stating my experiences with this technology. We are all friends here, and can hopefully have resonable debates on this and other subjetcts.. Especially in the prepress rhelm...

Now, I understand all your experiences are Jetplate based, and you have not had a G&J system I am greatly releived. But disappointed that you have paralleled us with these issues, especially when the G&J product was designed to address these issues... 300+ customers can't really be wrong?

 

[apjjr]

InkjetCTP_waste_of_money,

You said:

make the wise decision and stick with Laser!

I'm very new to this and I wondering what is a good laser plate setter for a small shop printing mostly 1 color and occasionally 2 spot colors. Never duo-tone or 4 color process.
I've got a Ryobi(18.5x12.75) and a Davidson Perfecta(16x17.5). We only used about 850 plates last year. What do you think about the Xante Impressia GTO?

 

[DonBlock]

Unmask? I do not need to tell you anything about me. I can tell you that I have 1000% more experience than you do, GUARANTEED, with these systems, and quite frankly your not looking to buy one so I do not need to address you. My credentials? If you read part of my report above you will see that I have vast knowledge and experience with these systems.

I am not a GURU at any stance, the originators, Bruce Harrison, Dave West, Albert Deutch, these guys are the true Gurus.. DO not think I am a "Appointed Guru" I learned from these guys. Where did you get your training?????

Enough said...

I'm not trying to make this personal, just trying to get the credentials of someone with such harsh statements against a product. I will proudly state that I have been in the industry for 20 years starting with Compugraphic/Agfa and have been factory trained and work with film and plate systems (Poly and Metal) including Screen, Mitsubishi, ECRM, G&J as well as all Workflows from the aforementioned companies. I deal with equipment and press issues daily.

As with all technology, the implementation is key to it's success. Don't bash the technology just because you were working for a company who could not get it right.

I should be more sensitive to your obviouse frustration, so all I ask is that you clarify which equipment/manufacturer that you are refering to in your comments.

 

[DonBlock]

InkjetCTP_waste_of_money,

You said:


I'm very new to this and I wondering what is a good laser plate setter for a small shop printing mostly 1 color and occasionally 2 spot colors. Never duo-tone or 4 color process.
I've got a Ryobi(18.5x12.75) and a Davidson Perfecta(16x17.5). We only used about 850 plates last year. What do you think about the Xante Impressia GTO?

apjjr,

Don't pass up looking at the iCTP 2000. It sounds like it could be a good solution for your shop. At less than 6 plates per day on average, a processor less plate would be a good fit.

Find a local dealer that you have confidence will get you the right product for your needs. They should be able to help you with samples, ROI etc......

 

[printshop]

jetplate help needed

jetplate help needed

We have unfortunately purchased a Jetplate system and have been struggling with it from day one. I was hoping that I can get some advise with several issues.

1) We are having issues with the the heat of the plate processor warping the plates.
we have adjusted the temperature but the issues still continues.
Plate do not fit!

2) Does anyone know if the Jetplate Harlequin Rip can be retro-fitted to suit another
CTP.

The perfect solution would be for us to get rid of the system. However, Jetplates financial woes as well at the our financial limitations is causing us to try to salvage part of this system. Therefore, we will take any advise you have to offer.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

printshop,

I saw a printshop with a jetplate and then had the cover off of there processor and never put it on, they said something about heat issues as well.

You might try running with the cover off, no guarantees though.

 

[InkjetCTP_waste_of_money]

Printshop - Answers in RED

Printshop - Answers in RED

1) We are having issues with the the heat of the plate processor warping the plates.
we have adjusted the temperature but the issues still continues.
Plate do not fit!

First off let me say how sorry I am for you purchasing this system since the company has NO techs to service or support the machine. If your plates are warping you have too high of a heat setting, or the speed is too slow. What processor do you have? The 64p or the newer Gray one. I was a tech/lead R&D designer etc for them. Record your settings for the procressor and post them here. Do you have heat strips? B and D?

2) Does anyone know if the Jetplate Harlequin Rip can be retro-fitted to suit another
CTP.

Unfortuneantely not. You can however puchase plugins from Xitron to work with other devices, however these will cost you as much as a new RIP. The JetPlate RIP was specifically designed and only shipped with the JetPlate2 plugin (I developed).

As for the top cover, the processor was very problematic, and since the company never had R&D money, it was better to leave the top cover off, I was actually retrofitting a see through plexi-cover idea so you could watch the plate come through, but of course the R&D cash wasnt there. The processor worked fine for plates of 22x26 and under, but 80% of the buyers wanted that 24x29 12 gauge size for the money which was always a problem especially for the 12 gauge plates. I actually wanted to stop sales of plates larger than 22x26. but you see how far that got.

I have heard through the grapevine that JetPlate is out of business..... Not sure where your going to find fluids and service.

 

[printshop]

Thank you for getting back to me.

***We have the JP 24 jetrunner

Program 1 preheat 175, post heat is at 365. We are currently running post heat at 341 and we are still having warping issue. Developer time is 50 seconds brush speed at 50%.

Tomorrow, I will get you the actual readings

Our biggest problem is with our bigger plates. 23 x 29. Our concern is that when turning the heat down we could loose the image on press. It was recommended. Do you know how far we can bring the temp. down before it will jeopordize the plates preformance on press. I am assuming the warping is occuring because the system is not heating the larger plates evenly.

Also, Threw put is horrible.

From what you have stated, you do not feel that there is any part of this system that I can salvage. I had hoped that I could replace the troublesome unit and try to at least get something out of the money that I have just throw away.

It is impossible to get service or a response from the company.

Jetplate, is not out of business yet, but i have a feeling they are close to it. I am amazed that they can still be selling their unit in the situation that they are in.

Sadly, we are fighting to keep this unit operating until we can come up with the capital to purchase another machine.

I will take any advise that anyone has to offer and truly appreciate your help.

 

[InkjetCTP_waste_of_money]

Thank you for getting back to me.

***We have the JP 24 jetrunner

Program 1 preheat 175, post heat is at 365. We are currently running post heat at 341 and we are still having warping issue. Developer time is 50 seconds brush speed at 50%.

Tomorrow, I will get you the actual readings

Our biggest problem is with our bigger plates. 23 x 29. Our concern is that when turning the heat down we could loose the image on press. It was recommended. Do you know how far we can bring the temp. down before it will jeopordize the plates preformance on press. I am assuming the warping is occuring because the system is not heating the larger plates evenly.

Also, Threw put is horrible.

From what you have stated, you do not feel that there is any part of this system that I can salvage. I had hoped that I could replace the troublesome unit and try to at least get something out of the money that I have just throw away.

It is impossible to get service or a response from the company.

Jetplate, is not out of business yet, but i have a feeling they are close to it. I am amazed that they can still be selling their unit in the situation that they are in.

Sadly, we are fighting to keep this unit operating until we can come up with the capital to purchase another machine.

I will take any advise that anyone has to offer and truly appreciate your help.

Trust me I feel your pain. I am sure your running a 12 gauge plate. If this is the case these settings are too high. Do you have the B and D strips as mentioned above? The optimal temps are 88-93 preheat (B strip head/tail) and 230-240c (D strip) on the post. Anything higher than this and your plate will be warped. Depending on what type of run length you are trying to achieve you can bring the heats down to 225-235c for impressions up to say 30k. You only need to achieve near perfect heat to 245c if you are looking for long 80-150k runs. Else lower the heat. Make sure you change the water daily and the spray bars are positioned correctly.

FYI - My opinion - I think it is border lined criminal what that company is doing.

 

[DonBlock]

i am talking about all inkjet stp systems...​

It must be very hard to go through life with blinders on...

WE ALL know that the process that G&J uses is completely different than the JetPlate System. I will agree with you that the JetPlate has serious issues and I would not recommend it to anyone. However, with your argument, I suppose you would not recommend anyone to use the Epson for their proofing either because it is not a reliable product (which could not be farther from the truth). These engins are very solid and are used in shops across the globe for many purposes for many years.

At +/- 30k, who finances these for 5 years? That's $500 a month. The ROI is obvioiusly much shorter than that. Not to say that they may not need service in that period of time, but what equipment would you suggest that will run flawlessly for 5 years?

People of the forum, please recognize the harsh tone of an obvious discruntaled ex-employee and have do dilagence in your OWN investigation of the right product for you. Remember, these same types of conclusions were spread and assumed when Violet CTP first came out and look were it is today............

 

[hagar]

It must be very hard to go through life with blinders on...

WE ALL know that the process that G&J uses is completely different than the JetPlate System. I will agree with you that the JetPlate has serious issues and I would not recommend it to anyone. However, with your argument, I suppose you would not recommend anyone to use the Epson for their proofing either because it is not a reliable product (which could not be farther from the truth). These engins are very solid and are used in shops across the globe for many purposes for many years.

At +/- 30k, who finances these for 5 years? That's $500 a month. The ROI is obvioiusly much shorter than that. Not to say that they may not need service in that period of time, but what equipment would you suggest that will run flawlessly for 5 years?

People of the forum, please recognize the harsh tone of an obvious discruntaled ex-employee and have do dilagence in your OWN investigation of the right product for you. Remember, these same types of conclusions were spread and assumed when Violet CTP first came out and look were it is today............

It does appear that someone on this forum does have a huge chip on his shoulder about Jet Plate and Inkjet CTP in general

The jet plate thing I can understand, but the G+J system has been proved he seems to know very little about.

I think anyone who buys a CTP system regardless of type, should see the system in action, get plates out and put them on their own press.

 

[hagar]

Totally agreed, however also talk with people that purchased the machine 1 year ago. I will gurantee you will find that 100% of these people would NOT buy another one. Yes this is a challenge to you.... good luck! What is it with you guys? If you have been dealing with this technology for as long as I have your opinions would be alot different than they are now. Please remember I have dealt with the DEVELOPMENT of this technology for over 5 years. I know and have run them all, and none would I recommend to anyone. Including G&J.

You also asked if I was another sales guy or dealer for G+J, the answer is no on both counts. I post on here for no other reason than an interest in the industry. Would I have an Inkjet CTP over a laser based system at a similar price. Probably not, but there are good points for a good working Inkjet CTP

My original post was in connection to your objectivity. You seem to have based views against the concept based on your experience at Jetplate.

To be it seems you have a chip on your shoulder about it all, It seems strange that you are so vocal against all inkjet CTP now, when by your own words you were doing R&D work for 5 years for a product that you say does not work.